By: mpx (mpx.delete@this.nomail.pl), October 1, 2011 4:40 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Anon (no@email.com) on 9/30/11 wrote:
---------------------------
>I know the trick in your comment above about uptime also
>as it is often measured by averaging the components of the
>cluster and will naturally be lower then than an
>equivalently costed single system (or at least should be!)
>however that is not the point - uptime for the provided
>service can be significantly better - the figure that
>counts.
>
Actually it may be about services. Clustered sevices are quite vunerable to certain types of events that single-box services are not. Especially problems with network can bring clustered services down, while normal OS services don't care at all; what's more they don't have "private" networks to be dependant on. Same with other services; like dependance on time synch. between nodes or existance of voting disks, or state of cluster configuration files, IP conflicts, in case of Oracle even about DNS.
It seems that cluster service desingners are very cautions about hazards of concurrent acces to shared data, so they do it in a way that is very eager to bring the services down when some event or bad state occurs, while normal OS services can continue running on a partially broken system.
The second point is about repairing broken clusters, especially during non-typical failures. This may mean longer diagnostics and repair time for a cluster. Basically a complexity factor.
For a single box an OS & application repair may just mean reimaging / bringing back last snapshot of a boot LUN (assuming the data is on separate LUNs) plus applying latest patches. For a broken cluster you have to diagnose much more elements, like the ones I mentioned (some of which are external to cluster!). And if reinstall is necessary then making a cluster lasts longer and more likely to end in a failure.
On the other hand it may even be beneficial. The fact that your services go down when something is wrong may be a way to force a lousy IT departament to make things right: to fix their network switch infrastructure, to monitor systems more closely and react to warnings more eagerly.
Some of the problems of clusters can be mitigated by proper hardware design. Like not using core switches for private network but 2 small, private ones, in the same chassis as servers, and connected to the same power connect. Having multiple voting disks placed on differend disk groups or even arrays etc. All this adds to price of both purchase, configuration and later maintenance.
In a way it's bad to rely on a single cluster. You should have some backup plan in case it fails. Some compamnies I saw had a testing/development/teaching environment to which production database can be linked (as LUN) or recoverd from backup in case of cluster failing. For the time of the cluster repair development and courses would cease and this would work as production.
Or simply keep a second set of turned off standby hardware plus some LUNs with installed and configured database software.
---------------------------
>I know the trick in your comment above about uptime also
>as it is often measured by averaging the components of the
>cluster and will naturally be lower then than an
>equivalently costed single system (or at least should be!)
>however that is not the point - uptime for the provided
>service can be significantly better - the figure that
>counts.
>
Actually it may be about services. Clustered sevices are quite vunerable to certain types of events that single-box services are not. Especially problems with network can bring clustered services down, while normal OS services don't care at all; what's more they don't have "private" networks to be dependant on. Same with other services; like dependance on time synch. between nodes or existance of voting disks, or state of cluster configuration files, IP conflicts, in case of Oracle even about DNS.
It seems that cluster service desingners are very cautions about hazards of concurrent acces to shared data, so they do it in a way that is very eager to bring the services down when some event or bad state occurs, while normal OS services can continue running on a partially broken system.
The second point is about repairing broken clusters, especially during non-typical failures. This may mean longer diagnostics and repair time for a cluster. Basically a complexity factor.
For a single box an OS & application repair may just mean reimaging / bringing back last snapshot of a boot LUN (assuming the data is on separate LUNs) plus applying latest patches. For a broken cluster you have to diagnose much more elements, like the ones I mentioned (some of which are external to cluster!). And if reinstall is necessary then making a cluster lasts longer and more likely to end in a failure.
On the other hand it may even be beneficial. The fact that your services go down when something is wrong may be a way to force a lousy IT departament to make things right: to fix their network switch infrastructure, to monitor systems more closely and react to warnings more eagerly.
Some of the problems of clusters can be mitigated by proper hardware design. Like not using core switches for private network but 2 small, private ones, in the same chassis as servers, and connected to the same power connect. Having multiple voting disks placed on differend disk groups or even arrays etc. All this adds to price of both purchase, configuration and later maintenance.
In a way it's bad to rely on a single cluster. You should have some backup plan in case it fails. Some compamnies I saw had a testing/development/teaching environment to which production database can be linked (as LUN) or recoverd from backup in case of cluster failing. For the time of the cluster repair development and courses would cease and this would work as production.
Or simply keep a second set of turned off standby hardware plus some LUNs with installed and configured database software.
| Topic | Posted By | Date |
|---|---|---|
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Gabriele Svelto | 09/27/11 01:32 PM |
| "perceptron-based" based branch predictor | Mark Roulo | 09/27/11 02:17 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | DaveC | 09/27/11 02:22 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Gabriele Svelto | 09/27/11 03:28 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | DaveC | 09/27/11 03:59 PM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Michael S | 09/27/11 03:44 PM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 01:43 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Michael S | 09/28/11 02:39 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 03:49 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Gabriele Svelto | 09/28/11 09:44 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Phil | 09/28/11 05:56 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Michael S | 09/28/11 06:23 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | someone | 09/28/11 06:54 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 07:39 AM |
| cracking benchmarks | anon | 09/28/11 02:10 PM |
| cracking benchmarks | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 09:39 PM |
| TPC-H is not a good benchmark | David Kanter | 09/28/11 05:02 PM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | someone | 09/28/11 06:50 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Michael S | 09/28/11 07:11 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread | blaine | 09/28/11 07:22 PM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 09:41 PM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread-SPARC T4 still comes out ahead! | Phil | 09/29/11 12:06 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread-SPARC T4 still comes out ahead! | Jesper Frimann | 09/29/11 01:49 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread-SPARC T4 still comes out ahead! | Phil | 09/29/11 02:13 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result - the high priced spread-SPARC T4 still comes out ahead! | Jesper Frimann | 09/29/11 03:24 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | AC | 10/10/11 01:11 AM |
| TPC-H benchmark result | Jesper Frimann | 10/10/11 02:24 AM |
| But woulnd't that make TPC-H meaningless? (NT) | Daniel Bizo | 10/11/11 12:29 AM |
| not very meaningful already | Michael S | 10/11/11 01:09 AM |
| OLTP vs. analytic DBMS | David Kanter | 10/11/11 02:44 PM |
| software or hardware | sp4mysf | 09/29/11 06:14 AM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Thu Nguyen | 09/27/11 04:40 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Brett | 09/27/11 08:21 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | David Kanter | 09/27/11 08:33 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | anon | 09/27/11 08:56 PM |
| TERA MTA | Mark Roulo | 09/28/11 08:36 AM |
| TERA MTA | anon | 09/28/11 03:11 PM |
| TERA MTA | Michael S | 09/29/11 12:58 PM |
| TERA MTA | anon | 09/29/11 01:46 PM |
| TERA MTA | Brett | 09/29/11 02:33 PM |
| Are you sure? | Michael S | 09/29/11 03:19 PM |
| Are you sure? | Brett | 09/29/11 05:31 PM |
| I trust The Register more | Paul A. Clayton | 09/30/11 10:15 AM |
| TERA MTA | mpx | 09/30/11 05:33 AM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | anon | 09/27/11 08:28 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Phil | 09/28/11 12:23 AM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | David Kanter | 09/28/11 12:57 AM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | Gabriele Svelto | 09/28/11 09:22 AM |
| Database clustering | David Kanter | 09/28/11 04:55 PM |
| Database clustering | Phil | 09/29/11 12:15 AM |
| Database clustering | David Kanter | 09/29/11 09:12 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/29/11 11:14 AM |
| Database clustering | David Kanter | 09/29/11 09:11 PM |
| Database clustering | Anon | 09/30/11 12:32 AM |
| Database clustering | David Kanter | 09/30/11 01:23 AM |
| Database clustering | mpx | 10/05/11 01:12 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 02:14 AM |
| Database clustering | Anon | 09/30/11 10:14 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/01/11 04:24 AM |
| Database clustering | Anon | 10/01/11 05:27 PM |
| Real system level : ) | David Kanter | 10/02/11 06:59 PM |
| Real system level : ) | Anon | 10/05/11 11:36 PM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/02/11 05:34 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/03/11 01:56 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/03/11 08:55 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/03/11 11:41 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/03/11 02:24 PM |
| Google... | EduardoS | 10/03/11 03:24 PM |
| Google... | Aaron Spink | 10/04/11 01:02 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/03/11 04:04 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/04/11 02:42 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/04/11 08:13 AM |
| Database clustering | EduardoS | 10/04/11 08:29 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/04/11 08:45 AM |
| Database clustering | bakaneko | 10/04/11 09:11 AM |
| Database clustering | Gabriele Svelto | 10/04/11 10:39 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/04/11 10:51 AM |
| Database clustering | Gabriele Svelto | 10/04/11 01:27 PM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/04/11 01:39 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/04/11 11:26 AM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/04/11 01:37 PM |
| Database clustering | anonymous | 10/02/11 10:27 PM |
| Database clustering | mpx | 10/01/11 04:40 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/30/11 05:42 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 06:19 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/30/11 06:33 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 08:44 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/30/11 09:01 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 09:55 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/30/11 10:07 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 11:11 AM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 09/30/11 11:33 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 09/30/11 03:00 PM |
| Database clustering | anon | 10/01/11 09:18 AM |
| Database clustering | Michael S | 10/01/11 10:33 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/01/11 10:22 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/12/11 11:14 PM |
| Warning: Bad pun (no content) | Paul A. Clayton | 10/12/11 11:32 PM |
| Good one *8^) (NT) | Jesper Frimann | 10/12/11 11:56 PM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 10/04/11 08:09 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/04/11 11:35 AM |
| Database clustering | Gabriele Svelto | 10/04/11 01:40 PM |
| Database clustering | David Kanter | 10/04/11 02:45 PM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/05/11 12:09 AM |
| Database clustering | EduardoS | 09/30/11 02:13 PM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 10/04/11 05:56 AM |
| Database clustering | mpx | 09/30/11 10:39 AM |
| Database clustering | EduardoS | 09/30/11 02:07 PM |
| Database clustering | Alex Fatkulin | 10/04/11 06:01 AM |
| Database clustering | mpx | 10/05/11 01:02 AM |
| Database clustering | Jesper Frimann | 10/01/11 01:32 AM |
| Database clustering | mpx | 09/30/11 12:20 AM |
| Database clustering | EduardoS | 09/30/11 02:09 PM |
| TPC-C king | Michael S | 09/28/11 02:31 AM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | someone | 09/28/11 11:23 AM |
| Flash vs. disk on SPECjEnterprise2010? | Paul A. Clayton | 09/27/11 03:29 PM |
| Flash vs. disk on SPECjEnterprise2010? | Gabriele Svelto | 09/27/11 10:23 PM |
| Flash vs. disk on SPECjEnterprise2010? | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 12:04 AM |
| Flash vs. disk on SPECjEnterprise2010? | Phil | 09/28/11 12:32 AM |
| Are you trolling? | David Kanter | 09/28/11 01:07 AM |
| memory bandwidth clarification etc.. | Michael S | 09/28/11 02:23 AM |
| memory bandwidth clarification etc.. | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 04:13 AM |
| memory bandwidth clarification etc.. | Phil | 09/28/11 06:06 AM |
| memory bandwidth clarification etc.. | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 09:25 AM |
| There is one (another one)... | EduardoS | 09/28/11 02:54 AM |
| There is one (another one)... | Michael S | 09/28/11 03:59 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Phil | 09/28/11 05:47 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 11:01 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Phil | 09/29/11 12:26 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Jesper Frimann | 09/29/11 02:27 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Phil | 09/29/11 04:46 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | David Kanter | 09/28/11 05:15 PM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Phil | 09/29/11 12:53 AM |
| Are you trolling? Yes, trolling for substantiation!! | Jesper Frimann | 09/29/11 07:43 AM |
| Pricing | David Kanter | 09/28/11 05:28 PM |
| Pricing | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 09:56 PM |
| Pricing | Michael S | 09/29/11 01:42 PM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | Paul A. Clayton | 09/28/11 05:49 AM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | Gabriele Svelto | 09/28/11 09:36 AM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | Jesper Frimann | 09/28/11 11:10 AM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | Gabriele Svelto | 09/28/11 12:56 PM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | Max | 09/29/11 06:53 AM |
| Instruction- vs. coprocessor-based extensions | Paul A. Clayton | 09/28/11 04:48 PM |
| Memory versioning? | anon | 10/02/11 08:48 PM |
| Memory versioning? | David Kanter | 10/02/11 09:31 PM |
| Memory versioning--not just for TM? | Paul A. Clayton | 10/09/11 02:37 PM |
| Memory versioning--not just for TM? | Gabriele Svelto | 10/09/11 10:11 PM |
| Memory versioning--not just for TM? | David Kanter | 10/11/11 03:15 PM |
| Point well taken | David Kanter | 09/28/11 05:18 PM |
| T4 better at cryptographic workloads? | EduardoS | 09/28/11 05:36 PM |
| Are you trolling? | Gabriele Svelto | 09/28/11 09:49 AM |
| An addendum on I/O | David Kanter | 09/28/11 11:29 AM |
| An addendum on I/O | Phil | 01/27/12 08:19 AM |
| An addendum on I/O | anon | 01/27/12 11:04 AM |
| An addendum on I/O | David Kanter | 01/27/12 03:47 PM |
| An addendum on I/O | Kira | 01/27/12 04:23 PM |
| Meant POWER7 (NT) | David Kanter | 01/27/12 06:55 PM |
| An addendum on I/O | Jesper Frimann | 01/29/12 07:58 AM |
| Are you trolling? | anon | 09/28/11 01:03 PM |
| Flash vs. disk on SPECjEnterprise2010? | mpx | 09/29/11 01:05 AM |
| Well done! | David Kanter | 09/27/11 07:10 PM |
| Well done! | Gabriele Svelto | 09/27/11 10:39 PM |
| On the UltraSPARC T4 | mpx | 09/29/11 12:56 AM |
| How much memory it supports? | EduardoS | 10/11/11 01:37 AM |
| How much memory it supports? | Michael S | 10/11/11 04:14 AM |
| Big power miss on T4? | David Kanter | 07/16/12 09:24 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | Gabriele Svelto | 07/17/12 11:26 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | David Kanter | 07/19/12 04:04 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | Kira | 07/19/12 05:44 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | EduardoS | 07/19/12 06:19 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | Kira | 07/19/12 09:37 PM |
| Big power miss on T4? | David Kanter | 07/19/12 10:15 PM |
| T4->T5 | blaine | 07/21/12 08:39 AM |
| Big power miss on T4? | EduardoS | 07/20/12 08:18 AM |
| Big power miss on T4? | mpx | 07/20/12 01:26 AM |
| Big power miss on T4? | EduardoS | 07/20/12 08:26 AM |
| Big power miss on T4? | Gabriele Svelto | 07/21/12 12:38 AM |



