By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), May 1, 2012 2:24 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
I don't care about existing NovaThor products, I care about FD-SOI. Stop changing the subject.
[snip]
>**Nevertheless it seems clear i was wrong**, FD-SOI will >not be first to market
>than Intel FinFET.
I'm glad you now have a more realistic understanding of FinFETs and FD-SOI.
> But it will happen now, even if STE ends up sold, there is
>guaranty that there will be an ARM(+-MALI) at 28nm FD-SOI, >NOT fiction (below).
It's a fiction until it is in production. Which is a year off. At that point in time, it will become obvious exactly what kind of performance FD-SOI delivers. It's low performance and low power.
[snip]
>>Let's try this again. Here's Ivy Bridge for sale:
>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116504&cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-19-116-504-_-Homepage2011
>>
>>Here's a discussion of the FD-SOI from STE:
>>
>>"LT: FD-SOI will be introduced into next generation products from ST-Ericsson.
>>At this time, our first 28nm FD-SOI products are scheduled to tape out in
>>Q3 2012 with production start anticipated in 2013."
>>
>>The bold is mine, for emphasis.
>>
>>http://semimd.com/hars/2012/04/24/st-ericsson-28nm-fd-soi-smartphone-soc-q3-tape-out-interview/
>... not bad for a company trying to survive, betting on a superior tech that is
>supposed to be more expensive even for cheap things like >platform chipsets... way to go!...
The variable costs of FD-SOI are higher, but the NRE is probably lower. That's a good trade-off for a company like STE or STM, both of which aren't doing particularly well.
>>That makes no sense. SOITEC talks up their technology >because they need to convince
>>companies to use it. Frankly, they have a poor history of >doing so. There was a
>>huge hyping of PD-SOI (and ZRAM). Neither of which panned >out really. PD-SOI is a niche technology, and ZRAM is dead.
>>
>Doesn't Intel also do a lot of Hype (convince ppl to use >it) about their FinFET ?
Intel has a history of making aggressive claims about process technology and then delivering. They nailed high-k/metal gates, they nailed FinFETs. In each case, they got significant performance and power benefits.
That's not hype, that's doing good work.
Intel likes to brag about its process technology, but that's quite different than marketing and trying to sell it to other people.
More to the point, Intel doesn't need to convince anyone else it's a good idea.
TSMC and Intel are the two largest manufacturers of digital logic. They both came to the same conclusion, that bulk FinFETs are the right technology for the future. Intel at 22nm, TSMC at 14nm.
So like it or not, the majority of the industry will be using FinFETs.
>And the last and best about ZRAM.. it was not on SOI it was >on bulk and on some exotic FinFET form..
ZRAM was on SOI and it was a failure. It was bad technology.
ZRAM on bulk is also problematic, but it didn't come till much later.
If you look back in 2007, ZRAM was working on SOI. Go read those press releases.
>Perhaps too expensive to manufacture now.. but not without >future... that is why Micron bought it.
So when do you think the first ZRAM products will come out?
My guess: Not for at least 10 years, and more likely never.
David
[snip]
>**Nevertheless it seems clear i was wrong**, FD-SOI will >not be first to market
>than Intel FinFET.
I'm glad you now have a more realistic understanding of FinFETs and FD-SOI.
> But it will happen now, even if STE ends up sold, there is
>guaranty that there will be an ARM(+-MALI) at 28nm FD-SOI, >NOT fiction (below).
It's a fiction until it is in production. Which is a year off. At that point in time, it will become obvious exactly what kind of performance FD-SOI delivers. It's low performance and low power.
[snip]
>>Let's try this again. Here's Ivy Bridge for sale:
>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116504&cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-19-116-504-_-Homepage2011
>>
>>Here's a discussion of the FD-SOI from STE:
>>
>>"LT: FD-SOI will be introduced into next generation products from ST-Ericsson.
>>At this time, our first 28nm FD-SOI products are scheduled to tape out in
>>Q3 2012 with production start anticipated in 2013."
>>
>>The bold is mine, for emphasis.
>>
>>http://semimd.com/hars/2012/04/24/st-ericsson-28nm-fd-soi-smartphone-soc-q3-tape-out-interview/
>... not bad for a company trying to survive, betting on a superior tech that is
>supposed to be more expensive even for cheap things like >platform chipsets... way to go!...
The variable costs of FD-SOI are higher, but the NRE is probably lower. That's a good trade-off for a company like STE or STM, both of which aren't doing particularly well.
>>That makes no sense. SOITEC talks up their technology >because they need to convince
>>companies to use it. Frankly, they have a poor history of >doing so. There was a
>>huge hyping of PD-SOI (and ZRAM). Neither of which panned >out really. PD-SOI is a niche technology, and ZRAM is dead.
>>
>Doesn't Intel also do a lot of Hype (convince ppl to use >it) about their FinFET ?
Intel has a history of making aggressive claims about process technology and then delivering. They nailed high-k/metal gates, they nailed FinFETs. In each case, they got significant performance and power benefits.
That's not hype, that's doing good work.
Intel likes to brag about its process technology, but that's quite different than marketing and trying to sell it to other people.
More to the point, Intel doesn't need to convince anyone else it's a good idea.
TSMC and Intel are the two largest manufacturers of digital logic. They both came to the same conclusion, that bulk FinFETs are the right technology for the future. Intel at 22nm, TSMC at 14nm.
So like it or not, the majority of the industry will be using FinFETs.
>And the last and best about ZRAM.. it was not on SOI it was >on bulk and on some exotic FinFET form..
ZRAM was on SOI and it was a failure. It was bad technology.
ZRAM on bulk is also problematic, but it didn't come till much later.
If you look back in 2007, ZRAM was working on SOI. Go read those press releases.
>Perhaps too expensive to manufacture now.. but not without >future... that is why Micron bought it.
So when do you think the first ZRAM products will come out?
My guess: Not for at least 10 years, and more likely never.
David
