* browsers are moving to a process per tab model

Article: Silvermont, Intel's Low Power Architecture
By: Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org), May 13, 2013 6:52 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Ricardo B (ricardo.b.delete@this.xxxxx.xx) on May 12, 2013 5:54 pm wrote:
> * browsers are moving to a process per tab model

This is irrelevant to performance. It only affects the issues being discussed here IF
(a) one has MULTIPLE windows open all of which SIMULTANEOUSLY
(b) require 100% of a CPU.
This does not match any current realistic usage scenario.
I don't want to be rude, but this is as idiotic as the claim that tablets will NEED quad-core because soon they will be displaying multiple windows from multiple simultaneously active apps.

People are confusing a number of different issues here.

(a) Is it "common" to make use of multiple threads? The short answer is, this has been tested across a range of common software and the answer is no. Ten years ago for some definition of "common" software, a desktop could not use more than two threads. (Mostly single-threaded app plus some GUI and interrupts offload).
Recently the same tests have bumped that number up to three threads because many apps now use a lot of threads (helped by new APIs that encourage this) but most of the threads are very light weight and spend their time blocked not active.

Big ticket apps that are NOT threaded in any useful fashion (ie threaded in the part that matters, not in some BS part that is only mentioned for scoring points) include web browsers (still) and PDF rendering. Games are also not nearly as threaded as the multicore advocates would have you believe.

(b) The issue, however, is NOT how to keep your CPU pegged at 100% 24/7. The issue is how to deliver the best computing experience. Leaving aside issues of cost, this boils down to making machines as snappy as possible. I don't care if my machine is idle 59 minutes out of every 60, what I care about is that when I require it to do something it happens as fast as possible. Extra cores (or SMT) help with this to a small extent. They do help when I want certain tasks to run faster (the usual video encode, the slightly less usual large Mathematica jobs, the occasional situation where I fire up three compute intensive tasks at once) and, per my earlier point, that's still pretty good --- if they speed things up once a week, what does it matter if they're mostly idle?

(c) On current Intel HW, SMT is worth about .25 of a core, so a quad-core with SMT is (pretty reliably) worth 5 cores. If you think it's an outrage that this number is not 8 cores, whatever. 5 is bigger than 4, and it's well established that the area cost for SMT is quite a bit less than the area of an additional core.
To claim that there MUST be some slowdown from SMT just because is not helpful, neither is claiming that "obviously" for most users some small speedup (say 5% on single-threaded performance) would be more helpful than SMT. To second-guess Intel's engineers in the absence of real data is just foolish. More specifically:
What limited the performance of SMT in earlier Intel (and other) chips was the memory subsystem. To make SMT work well, Intel has given its modern cores truly astonishingly good
memory systems. To put it differently, because of SMT you probably have a better memory system than you would otherwise --- and that probably speeds up your single-threaded performance far more than worrying about the 5% cost of whatever extra buffers and mixes SMT requires.

(d) It's also ridiculous to claim that the number of HW threads in PCs has leveled out. It may well level out SOON, but it hasn't yet. Ten years ago the common config was something like a P4 with SMT --- 2 HW threads but barely because the P4's SMT sucked so badly (like I said, memory system). Five years ago the common config was 2 cores, no SMT. The common config today is some mix of two cores with SMT and four cores with SMT.
I found two cores (say Penryn class machine) frequently maxed out. There is no way that was optimal. I find 4 IB cores with SMT pretty much NEVER maxed out. so, for current software, I'd say 4 IV cores (with or without SMT) is a great config. Anything less (say 2 IB cores with SMT) is of course acceptable --- but there are still enough real world use cases where it will max out that it's worth going to 4 core.
This is desktop of course. I see no reason to believe that better than dual CPU makes sense on any phone or tablet in the next few years. Basically: it makes sense to have the extra computation boost available IF you occasionally hit situations that utilize --- that odn't have to be common, but they do have to exist. On the desktop these situations do exist; on mobile not so much.
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        SMT is a dodo birdMichael S05/10/13 03:08 AM
        SMT is a dodo birdGabriele Svelto05/10/13 03:45 AM
          SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/11/13 07:02 AM
            SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/11/13 08:07 AM
              SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/11/13 04:39 PM
                SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/11/13 06:55 PM
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                    quad-core since Nov 2006RichardC05/12/13 06:41 AM
                      quad-core since Nov 2006mpx05/13/13 01:34 AM
                        quad-core since Nov 2006RichardC05/13/13 03:48 AM
                          quad-core since Nov 2006Jukka Larja05/14/13 11:34 AM
                            quad-core since Nov 2006RichardC05/14/13 12:23 PM
                            quad-core since Nov 2006RichardC05/14/13 12:24 PM
                    SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/12/13 05:48 PM
                      * browsers are moving to a process per tab model (NT)Ricardo B05/12/13 05:54 PM
                        * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelDoug S05/12/13 08:27 PM
                          * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelMichael S05/13/13 12:43 AM
                        * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelMaynard Handley05/13/13 06:52 PM
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                            * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelDoug S05/14/13 11:58 AM
                          * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelRichardC05/14/13 03:54 AM
                            * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelRicardo B05/14/13 05:06 AM
                              * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelMichael S05/14/13 05:45 AM
                                * browsers are moving to a process per tab modelRicardo B05/14/13 07:48 AM
                                How about anti-virus, security, utility, and encryption cpu usage and delays?David Ball05/14/13 07:48 AM
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                        SMT is a dodo birdJouni Osmala05/12/13 09:57 PM
                        SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/13/13 02:40 AM
                          SMT is a dodo birdMichael S05/13/13 03:50 AM
                            SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/13/13 06:13 AM
                    SMT is a dodo birdPatrick Chase05/13/13 08:33 PM
                      SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 10:38 AM
                        SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/14/13 11:15 AM
                          SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/14/13 11:18 AM
                            SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 12:09 PM
                              SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/14/13 12:50 PM
                                SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 01:09 PM
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                                    SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 05:40 PM
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                                        SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/15/13 03:14 AM
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                                          SMT is a dodo birdBrendan05/15/13 04:10 AM
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                                                  The Problem With Threadsanon05/16/13 08:55 AM
                                                  The Problem With ThreadsMaynard Handley05/16/13 10:22 AM
                                                  The Problem With ThreadsBrendan05/16/13 11:54 AM
                                                    The Problem With ThreadsRichardC05/16/13 12:19 PM
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                                                            The Problem With ThreadsRichardC05/17/13 07:22 AM
                                                        The Problem With ThreadsRichardC05/16/13 05:49 PM
                                                      The Problem With ThreadsRicardo B05/16/13 02:12 PM
                                                        The Problem With ThreadsRichardC05/17/13 07:49 AM
                                                    The Problem With ThreadsBrendan05/17/13 03:03 AM
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                                          SMT is a dodo birdmpx05/15/13 02:09 PM
                                            SMT is a dodo birdEduardoS05/15/13 04:55 PM
                               4C/4T 4.0GHz was significantly faster than 4C/4T 3.8GHz??Mark Roulo05/14/13 05:37 PM
                                 4C/4T 4.0GHz was significantly faster than 4C/4T 3.8GHz??RichardC05/14/13 05:54 PM
                                  Thanks. Mark Roulo05/14/13 06:05 PM
                                   4C/4T 4.0GHz was significantly faster than 4C/4T 3.8GHz??Exophase05/14/13 08:10 PM
                                     More tests of HT and gamesExophase05/14/13 08:24 PM
                                       More tests of HT and gamesRichardC05/15/13 03:26 AM
                                         More tests of HT and gamesExophase05/15/13 06:43 AM
                                           More tests of HT and gamesMichael S05/15/13 12:35 PM
                                             More tests of HT and gamesRicardo B05/15/13 01:16 PM
                                               More tests of HT and gamesRicardo B05/15/13 01:19 PM
                                               More tests of HT and gamesJukka Larja05/16/13 06:12 AM
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                          SMT is a dodo birdJukka Larja05/15/13 09:02 AM
                        SMT is a dodo birdPatrick Chase05/17/13 09:43 AM
                          SMT is a dodo birdJouni Osmala05/17/13 10:27 AM
                          SMT is a dodo birdBrett05/17/13 07:26 PM
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                SMT is a dodo birdHeikki Kultala05/12/13 01:02 AM
                  SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/12/13 06:57 AM
                SMT is a dodo birdJukka Larja05/12/13 03:33 AM
                SMT is a dodo birdStubabe05/14/13 12:09 PM
                  SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 01:43 PM
                    SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/14/13 03:00 PM
                      SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/14/13 06:27 PM
                        SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/15/13 03:50 AM
                          SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/15/13 08:53 AM
                            SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/15/13 09:31 AM
                              SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/15/13 11:13 AM
                                SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/15/13 12:43 PM
                                  SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/15/13 01:15 PM
                                    SMT is a dodo birdRicardo B05/15/13 01:40 PM
                                      SMT is a dodo birdRichardC05/15/13 02:00 PM
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                                        SMT is a dodo birdJouni Osmala05/16/13 03:16 AM
                    SMT is a dodo birdStubabe05/16/13 11:54 AM
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                    Using the available die areaRicardo B05/15/13 04:15 AM
                      Using the available die areaStubabe05/16/13 11:26 AM
                        Using the available die areaRicardo B05/16/13 02:05 PM
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        SMT is a dodo birdFoo_05/11/13 05:21 AM
          SMT is a dodo birdEduardoS05/11/13 09:28 AM
        SMT is a dodo birdDoug S05/11/13 10:49 AM
          SMT is a dodo birdmpx05/12/13 12:04 PM
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              SMT is a dodo birdmpx05/12/13 06:13 PM
                Thanks for the actual research effort! (NT)Paul A. Clayton05/13/13 05:43 AM
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                        How Does Silvermont Compare To A15?Exophase05/17/13 10:33 PM
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                            FYI Tegra4 has A15 in it also, so 3 devicesMichael S05/22/13 03:21 AM
                              FYI Tegra4 has A15 in it also, so 3 devicesS. Rao05/22/13 10:06 AM
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                                                    Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro06/03/13 08:25 AM
                                              Silvermont architecture in-depth articlerwessel06/03/13 12:09 AM
                                                Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro06/03/13 09:59 AM
                                                  Silvermont architecture in-depth articlerwessel06/03/13 10:51 AM
                                                    Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro06/04/13 06:31 PM
                                      Silvermont architecture in-depth articlerwessel05/31/13 03:20 PM
                                        Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro05/31/13 06:59 PM
                                          Silvermont architecture in-depth articlerwessel05/31/13 09:02 PM
                                            Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro05/31/13 09:13 PM
                                            Quibbling on multithreadingPaul A. Clayton06/01/13 10:11 AM
                                              Quibbling on multithreadingrwessel06/02/13 11:54 PM
                                                Exploiting for SMT was my "contribution"Paul A. Clayton06/03/13 04:53 AM
                                            Silvermont architecture in-depth articleMichael S06/01/13 10:49 AM
                        Silvermont architecture in-depth articleRicardo B05/30/13 04:41 PM
                          Didn't notice how this was to be organized...Sebastian Soeiro05/30/13 07:55 PM
          Silvermont, not Saltwell? (NT)papapapa05/28/13 04:33 PM
            Of course. Not enough sleep. (NT)Ricardo B05/29/13 02:27 PM
  No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon06/28/13 03:27 AM
    No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Michael S06/28/13 04:52 AM
      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Exophase06/28/13 01:54 PM
        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Michael S06/29/13 11:21 AM
          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Exophase06/29/13 09:07 PM
      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Linus Torvalds06/29/13 12:22 PM
        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon06/29/13 05:26 PM
          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/29/13 06:50 PM
            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon06/29/13 09:15 PM
              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/29/13 09:31 PM
                No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon06/30/13 02:53 AM
                  No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/30/13 05:24 AM
                    No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon06/30/13 10:41 AM
                      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/30/13 01:26 PM
                        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/01/13 12:32 AM
                          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS07/01/13 05:40 PM
                            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/01/13 06:44 PM
                            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Michael S07/02/13 05:40 AM
                              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Exophase07/02/13 09:03 AM
                              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS07/02/13 05:20 PM
                          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 09:25 AM
                      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Etienne07/02/13 04:36 AM
                        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/02/13 07:13 AM
                          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 10:03 AM
                            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/02/13 04:12 PM
                              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 04:43 PM
                                No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/02/13 05:47 PM
                                  No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 07:36 PM
                                    No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/02/13 09:03 PM
                                      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Symmetry07/03/13 07:14 AM
                                        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/03/13 09:04 PM
                                          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/04/13 03:23 AM
                        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 10:01 AM
                          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Etienne07/03/13 03:26 AM
                            layer 2 cache behaviourEtienne07/05/13 03:14 AM
                              layer 2 cache behaviourMichael S07/05/13 06:41 AM
                                layer 2 cache behaviourEtienne07/05/13 09:15 AM
                              layer 2 cache behaviourPatrick Chase07/05/13 11:37 AM
                                layer 2 cache behaviourMichael S07/06/13 10:57 AM
                                  layer 2 cache behaviourPatrick Chase07/06/13 12:08 PM
                                    layer 2 cache behaviourPatrick Chase07/06/13 12:19 PM
                                    layer 2 cache behaviourEtienne07/08/13 03:10 AM
                                      layer 2 cache behaviourPatrick Chase07/08/13 10:02 AM
                                  layer 2 cache behaviourPatrick Chase07/06/13 02:15 PM
                                  layer 2 cache behaviourUngo07/09/13 03:24 PM
                      No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 08:43 AM
                  No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 08:34 AM
                    No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?anon07/02/13 04:15 PM
            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?none06/30/13 05:03 AM
              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/30/13 05:45 AM
                No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?none06/30/13 06:28 AM
                  No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?EduardoS06/30/13 01:27 PM
        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?x06/30/13 03:54 AM
          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Foo_06/30/13 06:15 AM
        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?rwessel06/30/13 10:11 PM
          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Linus Torvalds07/01/13 01:40 PM
            No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Patrick Chase07/02/13 10:35 AM
              No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?Linus Torvalds07/02/13 11:18 AM
            FPU in integer codes07/02/13 11:38 AM
              FPU in integer codesPatrick Chase07/02/13 11:56 AM
              FPU in integer codesLinus Torvalds07/02/13 12:12 PM
                FPU in integer codesPatrick Chase07/02/13 12:34 PM
                  FPU in integer codesLinus Torvalds07/02/13 01:55 PM
        No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?06/30/13 11:42 PM
          No out-of-order in FP cluster of silvermont?bakaneko07/03/13 03:54 AM
        What about integer SIMD?Exophase07/01/13 12:44 AM
          What about integer SIMD?anon07/01/13 01:45 AM
            What about integer SIMD?Michael S07/01/13 08:57 AM
              What about integer SIMD?rwessel07/01/13 03:39 PM
                What about integer SIMD?Michael S07/01/13 04:11 PM
                  What about integer SIMD?EduardoS07/01/13 06:04 PM
                    What about integer SIMD?Michael S07/02/13 12:32 AM
          What about integer SIMD?hi07/01/13 08:15 AM
            What about integer SIMD?Exophase07/01/13 10:50 AM
            What about integer SIMD?David Kanter07/02/13 01:20 PM
              What about integer SIMD?hi07/02/13 03:48 PM
                What about integer SIMD?David Kanter07/04/13 03:19 PM
  Silvermont architecture in-depth articleSebastian Soeiro07/30/13 09:34 AM
    TLBs are caches of page tablesPaul A. Clayton07/30/13 11:03 AM
      TLBs are caches of page tablesSebastian Soeiro07/30/13 01:18 PM
        TLBs are caches of page tablesPaul A. Clayton07/30/13 03:59 PM
          TLBs are caches of page tablesSebastian Soeiro07/30/13 05:27 PM
            TLBs are caches of page tablesrwessel07/30/13 07:01 PM
              TLBs are caches of page tablesSebastian Soeiro07/31/13 02:15 PM
                Floorplan images show physical locationsPaul A. Clayton07/31/13 04:11 PM
                  Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro07/31/13 09:12 PM
                    Floorplan images show physical locationsrwessel08/01/13 12:21 AM
                      Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro08/02/13 12:58 PM
                        Floorplan images show physical locationsAntti-Ville Tuunainen08/02/13 02:09 PM
                        Floorplan images show physical locationsStubabe08/02/13 07:49 PM
                          Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro08/03/13 08:23 AM
                            Floorplan images show physical locationsrwessel08/03/13 11:16 PM
                            Floorplan images show physical locationsMelody Speer08/04/13 04:11 AM
                              Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro08/04/13 05:42 PM
                                Floorplan images show physical locationsrwessel08/04/13 10:58 PM
                                  Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro08/07/13 03:33 PM
                                    Floorplan images show physical locationsrwessel08/08/13 01:03 PM
                                      Floorplan images show physical locationsSebastian Soeiro08/11/13 09:20 AM
                                        Page tables are set up by the OSPaul A. Clayton08/11/13 01:25 PM
                                          Page tables are set up by the OSSebastian Soeiro08/16/13 08:43 PM
                                            Multilevel page table formatPaul A. Clayton08/17/13 11:18 AM
                                              Multilevel page table formatSebastian Soeiro08/19/13 03:28 PM
                                                Multilevel page table formatrwessel08/20/13 12:08 AM
                                                  Multilevel page table formatSebastian Soeiro08/22/13 04:52 PM
                                                    Multilevel page table formatTREZA08/22/13 05:30 PM
                                                    Multilevel page table formatrwessel08/23/13 10:58 PM
                                                      Multilevel page table formatSebastian Soeiro08/25/13 08:20 AM
                TLBs are caches of page tablesrwessel08/01/13 12:41 AM
                  TLBs are caches of page tablesSebastian Soeiro08/02/13 12:51 PM
                    TLBs are caches of page tablesrwessel08/02/13 06:55 PM
  Silvermont instruction schedulingHugo Décharnes10/02/13 03:25 AM
    Silvermont instruction schedulingMichael S10/02/13 04:29 AM
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