SLC vs. MLC

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), January 6, 2009 2:04 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Joern Engel (joern@logfs.org) on 1/6/09 wrote:
>
>In particular, could you explain what the "right technical
>solution" is without depending on "Most filesystems..." as
>a basis? Majority votes are rarely a good design choice. ;)

The only sane flash model is one where the hardware itself
does the block remapping.

And no, this is not about "most filesystems" or about any
majority voting. It's a simple technical fact.

The simple fact is that exposing the internal flash
model to any external software is simply insane. You'd
never suggest that software should know about the exact
details of RAM DIMM addressing, and know about open
pages and the size and organization of banks.

Anybody today realizes that that would be total insanity,
and that you have a DRAM controller that does all that
in hardware. Yes, it will have a software component to it
to set things up, but even that component is effectively
hidden and done automatically. Not even system software
really ever needs to know.

Yes, flash is a bit more complex. It's not just about
timing rules and dynamic decisions about which pages to
keep open - because of the wear issues, you actually have
to keep track of long-term decisions. But the issues are
really no different.

It's simply insane to expect filesystems to know or care
about the odd flash rules of some particular chip. Yes,
it can be done, and yes, it has been done, but it
makes it no less insane. You need to have a flash controller
there anyway to wiggle the pins at the right
timing, and the only technically sane model is that that
flash controller also adds enough indirection that the
result can be treated as a single linear block device.

End result: if you see a flash disk that doesn't already
do wear levelling, that doesn't already do block remapping,
and that doesn't already handle random writes well, just
walk away
.

It's that simple: the people who are trying to sell you
that crap are technically incompetent. You shouldn't buy
it, because you know it's crap. It was acceptable a couple
of years ago, but hey, so was doing the MFM encoding in
software for disks. It's not acceptable any more.

A software stack that isn't connected to the manufacturer
of the flash (ie a "generic flash remapping layer" like the
Linux UBI layer) simply cannot ever do as good a job as
just doing the thing on the flash controller. The flash
controller can take advantage of the physical behavior of
the flash much better, and can generally be tuned to one
particular type.

Yes, we'll probably see flash translation layers remain in
some extreme embedded environments, but certainly not in
any sane situation. And quite frankly, I doubt the "extreme
embedded" case remains very long either - since you end
up basically needing it even for the cheapest possible SD
card, the economics of scale actually pretty much argue for
raw flash devices not being all that relevant for anything
but firmware that gets updated a couple of times a year
and doesn't even need any of the whole remapping crud.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S08/19/08 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/19/08 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink08/19/08 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/19/08 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker08/20/08 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert08/20/08 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 08:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter08/21/08 01:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler08/21/08 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie08/21/08 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 10:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter08/21/08 11:44 AM
                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S08/21/08 12:03 PM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang08/21/08 03:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter08/21/08 03:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/21/08 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel08/21/08 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/22/08 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi08/21/08 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter08/22/08 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo08/23/08 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/21/08 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/22/08 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/22/08 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS08/22/08 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter08/22/08 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert08/22/08 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon08/23/08 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert08/23/08 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/23/08 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/08/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala09/09/08 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max09/12/08 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS09/12/08 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax09/13/08 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu09/14/08 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax09/15/08 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax09/11/08 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo09/11/08 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 07:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 10:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS02/03/09 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/11/08 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel09/11/08 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/12/08 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/12/08 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/13/08 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo09/15/08 12:18 PM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter09/22/08 01:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu09/22/08 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds09/22/08 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo09/22/08 12:27 PM
                                                                      4K sectorsWes Felter09/22/08 06:03 PM
                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert09/22/08 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/22/08 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu09/23/08 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/23/08 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/23/08 12:10 PM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 05:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel09/23/08 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala09/22/08 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter09/22/08 11:25 AM
                                                                How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Rob Thorpe09/22/08 02:01 PM
                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead09/23/08 06:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler09/24/08 04:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath01/25/09 04:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S09/12/08 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S09/12/08 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess09/12/08 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous09/12/08 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala09/12/08 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds09/13/08 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 04:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang09/08/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert09/08/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink09/09/08 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo09/10/08 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous01/06/09 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 05:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:35 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 05:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:26 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon01/06/09 08:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon01/07/09 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser200001/07/09 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/07/09 10:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert01/09/09 12:21 PM
                                      FTL and FSiz01/09/09 07:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds01/09/09 09:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz01/10/09 02:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S01/10/09 03:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz01/10/09 05:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds01/10/09 07:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter01/11/09 05:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen01/11/09 01:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath01/25/09 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/25/09 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S01/26/09 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent01/26/09 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen01/27/09 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats01/28/09 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker01/28/09 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon01/28/09 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker01/29/09 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent01/29/09 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/29/09 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel01/29/09 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/29/09 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar01/29/09 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon01/29/09 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon01/29/09 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon02/01/09 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous02/01/09 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon02/02/09 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous02/02/09 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon02/02/09 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter02/01/09 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter02/01/09 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon02/02/09 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe02/02/09 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold02/02/09 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel02/02/09 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S02/03/09 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel02/03/09 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/04/09 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S02/05/09 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo02/05/09 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/05/09 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu02/05/09 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz01/30/09 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon01/30/09 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon01/29/09 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/29/09 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/29/09 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart01/30/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe01/30/09 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/30/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/31/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent01/31/09 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe02/02/09 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel02/02/09 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu02/02/09 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent02/02/09 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe02/03/09 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent02/03/09 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel02/03/09 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon02/03/09 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu02/03/09 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/03/09 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S02/04/09 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/04/09 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen02/04/09 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel02/03/09 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon02/04/09 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats02/04/09 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx02/05/09 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S01/31/09 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/31/09 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/31/09 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/27/09 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S01/27/09 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent01/27/09 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen01/27/09 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel01/12/09 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/12/09 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/13/09 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo01/13/09 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter01/13/09 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath01/25/09 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo08/21/08 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S08/21/08 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart08/20/08 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/19/08 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/20/08 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/20/08 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter08/21/08 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang08/21/08 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf08/22/08 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/22/08 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/22/08 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/24/08 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/24/08 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul08/24/08 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/25/08 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/22/08 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink08/23/08 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/23/08 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink08/23/08 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/23/08 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS08/23/08 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/24/08 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess08/24/08 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink08/24/08 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel08/22/08 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman08/22/08 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel05/29/09 10:16 AM
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