The File Abstraction

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), January 26, 2009 3:29 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Dean Kent (dkent@realworldtech.com) on 1/26/09 wrote:
>
>So, I think you can say people learned from their mistakes
> - but part of it is that technology has marched forward
>much faster than those original architects likely ever
>considered possible.

Well, it's not VMS itself that is scary, but the reason I
brought up VMS was to point out that this whole "complex
files" model has been done (and not just by VMS, btw),
and it's been found to be a failure.

And the thing is, people are apparently not learning from
the mistake. There are still people who want to put the
database back into the filesystem. Ugh.

So I'm not dragging VMS out as an example of "see, those
idiots did it already". Back then, you had reasons for it,
although I suspect the biggest reason was simply not knowing
any better rather than the ones you mentioned.

Today? Not so much. Filesystems with complex semantics are
simply not a good idea. You want your data to move around,
not get stuck in the sticky treacle of some odd specialized
filesystem.

But despite that, filesystem people tend to want to feel
more important (or whatever it is that drives them to
invent new interfaces), and database people seem to want to
sometimes get rid of their problems (as if they just go
away if you move them to the OS), and the two always seem
to be eyeing each other with a glint of lust in their eyes.

I suspect it's because they both get intimate with the
disk, and they think that some kind of unholy threesome
would make it all even more fun.

Blearrgh. I need some mental eye-bleach after that
simile.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S08/19/08 09:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/19/08 12:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink08/19/08 04:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/19/08 05:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 08:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 02:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 05:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 06:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 08:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 12:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 02:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 01:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen08/20/08 02:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen08/20/08 02:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 10:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker08/20/08 11:35 AM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert08/20/08 06:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 07:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter08/21/08 12:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler08/21/08 05:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie08/21/08 05:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 07:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 08:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 08:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 09:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter08/21/08 10:44 AM
                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S08/21/08 11:03 AM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang08/21/08 02:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter08/21/08 02:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 12:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/21/08 10:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel08/21/08 11:45 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/22/08 07:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 12:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi08/21/08 11:24 AM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter08/22/08 12:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo08/23/08 11:52 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/21/08 05:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/22/08 07:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/22/08 01:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS08/22/08 05:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter08/22/08 08:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert08/22/08 09:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon08/23/08 09:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert08/23/08 09:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/23/08 09:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 11:03 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 12:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/08/08 08:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 09:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/08/08 11:12 PM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala09/09/08 12:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max09/12/08 11:51 AM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS09/12/08 03:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax09/13/08 07:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu09/14/08 08:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax09/15/08 11:50 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 06:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 08:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 09:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/09/08 11:29 PM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 01:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 02:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 03:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 04:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 05:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 05:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 08:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 05:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 08:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 09:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 06:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 08:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 09:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax09/11/08 06:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 08:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 08:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 10:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo09/11/08 11:18 AM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 04:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 06:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 09:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS02/03/09 02:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 11:39 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/11/08 12:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 04:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 04:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel09/11/08 05:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/11/08 11:00 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/12/08 07:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/13/08 09:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo09/15/08 11:18 AM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter09/22/08 12:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu09/22/08 03:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds09/22/08 06:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo09/22/08 11:27 AM
                                                                      4K sectorsWes Felter09/22/08 05:03 PM
                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel09/22/08 09:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert09/22/08 08:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/22/08 09:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu09/23/08 01:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/22/08 09:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/23/08 08:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/23/08 11:10 AM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 04:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel09/23/08 08:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 01:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala09/22/08 10:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter09/22/08 10:25 AM
                                                                How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Rob Thorpe09/22/08 01:01 PM
                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead09/23/08 05:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler09/24/08 03:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath01/25/09 03:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S09/12/08 03:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S09/12/08 03:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess09/12/08 08:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous09/12/08 07:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala09/12/08 10:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 10:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 11:09 AM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds09/13/08 01:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 04:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 01:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 01:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 03:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang09/08/08 06:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert09/08/08 08:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink09/09/08 03:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo09/10/08 12:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 09:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 01:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 02:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 03:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous01/06/09 04:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 04:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 11:35 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 04:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 05:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 06:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 11:26 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon01/06/09 07:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 11:52 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon01/07/09 01:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser200001/07/09 06:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/07/09 09:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert01/09/09 11:21 AM
                                      FTL and FSiz01/09/09 06:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds01/09/09 08:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz01/10/09 01:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S01/10/09 02:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz01/10/09 04:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds01/10/09 06:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter01/11/09 04:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen01/11/09 12:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath01/25/09 05:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/25/09 12:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 08:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S01/26/09 12:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 01:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent01/26/09 02:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 03:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 08:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 09:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 09:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 10:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 12:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen01/27/09 01:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 04:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 07:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats01/28/09 08:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker01/28/09 09:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 12:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon01/28/09 08:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker01/29/09 09:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 10:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent01/29/09 10:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/29/09 01:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel01/29/09 03:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/29/09 02:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar01/29/09 03:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 04:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon01/29/09 06:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon01/29/09 08:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon02/01/09 06:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous02/01/09 09:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon02/02/09 01:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous02/02/09 04:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon02/02/09 06:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter02/01/09 10:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter02/01/09 10:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon02/02/09 12:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe02/02/09 03:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold02/02/09 05:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel02/02/09 11:33 AM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S02/03/09 01:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 08:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 09:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 10:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 11:00 AM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 11:36 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 09:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel02/03/09 10:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 10:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/04/09 04:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S02/05/09 12:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo02/05/09 12:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/05/09 01:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu02/05/09 03:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz01/30/09 01:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon01/30/09 08:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon01/29/09 08:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/29/09 07:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/29/09 08:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 10:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 04:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart01/29/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe01/30/09 11:39 AM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 12:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 05:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/30/09 10:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/30/09 11:08 PM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/30/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/30/09 11:56 PM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent01/31/09 08:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe02/02/09 01:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel02/02/09 10:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu02/02/09 11:30 AM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent02/02/09 01:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe02/03/09 04:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent02/03/09 06:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel02/03/09 01:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon02/03/09 09:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 10:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu02/03/09 11:03 AM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:17 AM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/03/09 10:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S02/04/09 05:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/04/09 08:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent02/03/09 11:17 AM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:24 AM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen02/04/09 09:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel02/03/09 01:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon02/04/09 01:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats02/04/09 04:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx02/05/09 12:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S01/31/09 09:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/31/09 09:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 07:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/31/09 10:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 03:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 01:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 01:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe01/27/09 10:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/26/09 11:28 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S01/27/09 02:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent01/27/09 07:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen01/27/09 01:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel01/12/09 05:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/12/09 06:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/12/09 11:52 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo01/13/09 02:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter01/13/09 04:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath01/25/09 04:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo08/21/08 11:54 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 12:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S08/21/08 07:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 02:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart08/20/08 03:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/19/08 09:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/19/08 11:28 PM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/20/08 02:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter08/21/08 12:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang08/21/08 05:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf08/22/08 12:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/22/08 06:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/22/08 08:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/24/08 12:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/24/08 03:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 08:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul08/24/08 10:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 11:37 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/24/08 11:53 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/22/08 09:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink08/23/08 01:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/23/08 08:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 12:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 12:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink08/23/08 03:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/23/08 04:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 05:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS08/23/08 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 05:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 08:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/24/08 12:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess08/24/08 02:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink08/24/08 03:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel08/22/08 05:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman08/22/08 11:12 AM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel05/29/09 09:16 AM
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