The File Abstraction

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), January 28, 2009 8:17 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
slacker (s@lack.er) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>>slacker (s@lack.er) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>>>
>>>What if you have 5 applications wanting to write metadata
>>>about a file? Keep 5 textfiles around in a directory?
>>
>>No, keep their own damn databases, and index it by the
>>filename or something. Different programs should just
>>keep their data separate. They shouldn't mix it up with
>>files that they don't control.
>
>1176 words, and you start with this. If the application is
>indexing the files by name, what happens when the name
>changes?

You really don't understand the problems, do you?

I very much mentioned the case of the name changing later
in the post when I talked more about using a database
instead:

>>Again, it may appear slightly less convenient ("But but
>>but .. I _want_ my annotations to move around with the
>>file, and my brain is too small to think about security
>>issues"), but again, it's actually not a totally broken
>>model.

but you didn't seem to react to that part.

I acknowledge that it's "convenient" to have the metadata
follow a rename, but you don't seem to be able to fathom
why it's such an idiotic idea. The whole "convenience"
factor is simply not compelling enough, not when you
actually understand the problems.

And I tried to outline at least part of the problems. But
it all basically boils down to the fact that you don't
know, and fundamentally cannot know, whether the
metadata actually does follow the data, and whether it was
intentional or not.

(And this is what the security problems really boil down to
as well - the "don't know" and the "intentional or not"
part are both huge security issues).

For example, does it follow the data when you do a "mv"?

Here's a simple fact: you can never know. A trivial
file rename may well strip the data off the file. Do you
really want that kind of random behavior to be part of your
magic metadata? Hint: think cross-filesystem moves that
turn into copy/delete operations. And realize that you as
a user don't generally even know where the filesystem
boundaries are.

Or how about this: is your meta-data even valid after the
file got moved or copied and perhaps given to another
person? What about after changes?

Another question: say that you do edit the file.
Did you realize that 99% of all editors will have thrown
away your precious resources, because the way they edit
files is to create a new one, and then rename it over the
old one. But other changes to the file may not do that,
and may edit the file in place.

A fourth one: do you expect the meta-data to work when you
access the same file across the network, say over NFS?

Good luck with all that.

In other words: yes, extended attributes may be "convenient"
but they are totally an utterly broken. You will simply
never get any kind of "repeatable" behaviour. That's
simply pretty fundamental to the whole notion.

In contrast, using a database that your indexing program
controls at least gives you unequivocal answers to all the
above questions. It may not be as convenient (put another
way: the answers may not be the ones you want), but
it at least has well-defined semantics.

This is what I mean by "fundamentally broken". EA's give
you random associations. They're not reliable. They are
only reliable if you have strict rules for the file in
question, but if you have those then you're really much
much better off by just making that part of the
file format instead, and moving the metadata into
the file itself.

You can't have it both ways. Either you control the files
(in which case EA's are not the best answer), or you don't
(in which case EA's simply don't work reliably anyway).

And if you're willing to do the crap-shoot approach (the
"I don't need strict semantics, just a best-effort thing"
kind of situation where you don't really control the file,
but you feel confident enough that you're willing to gamble)
then you're still back to "a separate index over the
filename and/or inode/device number works better and more
reliably" case.

You can ask "what if the filename changes" all you like,
but you're ignoring the fact that EA's don't handle that
case any better anyway.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S08/19/08 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/19/08 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink08/19/08 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/19/08 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker08/20/08 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert08/20/08 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 08:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter08/21/08 01:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler08/21/08 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie08/21/08 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 10:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter08/21/08 11:44 AM
                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S08/21/08 12:03 PM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang08/21/08 03:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter08/21/08 03:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/21/08 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel08/21/08 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/22/08 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi08/21/08 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter08/22/08 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo08/23/08 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/21/08 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/22/08 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/22/08 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS08/22/08 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter08/22/08 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert08/22/08 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon08/23/08 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert08/23/08 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/23/08 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/08/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala09/09/08 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max09/12/08 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS09/12/08 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax09/13/08 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu09/14/08 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax09/15/08 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax09/11/08 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo09/11/08 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 07:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 10:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS02/03/09 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/11/08 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel09/11/08 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/12/08 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/12/08 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/13/08 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo09/15/08 12:18 PM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter09/22/08 01:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu09/22/08 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds09/22/08 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo09/22/08 12:27 PM
                                                                      4K sectorsWes Felter09/22/08 06:03 PM
                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert09/22/08 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/22/08 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu09/23/08 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/23/08 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/23/08 12:10 PM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 05:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel09/23/08 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala09/22/08 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter09/22/08 11:25 AM
                                                                How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Rob Thorpe09/22/08 02:01 PM
                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead09/23/08 06:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler09/24/08 04:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath01/25/09 04:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S09/12/08 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S09/12/08 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess09/12/08 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous09/12/08 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala09/12/08 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds09/13/08 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 04:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang09/08/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert09/08/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink09/09/08 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo09/10/08 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous01/06/09 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 05:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:35 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 05:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:26 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon01/06/09 08:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon01/07/09 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser200001/07/09 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/07/09 10:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert01/09/09 12:21 PM
                                      FTL and FSiz01/09/09 07:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds01/09/09 09:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz01/10/09 02:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S01/10/09 03:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz01/10/09 05:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds01/10/09 07:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter01/11/09 05:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen01/11/09 01:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath01/25/09 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/25/09 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S01/26/09 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent01/26/09 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen01/27/09 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats01/28/09 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker01/28/09 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon01/28/09 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker01/29/09 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent01/29/09 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/29/09 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel01/29/09 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/29/09 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar01/29/09 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon01/29/09 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon01/29/09 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon02/01/09 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous02/01/09 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon02/02/09 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous02/02/09 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon02/02/09 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter02/01/09 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter02/01/09 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon02/02/09 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe02/02/09 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold02/02/09 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel02/02/09 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S02/03/09 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel02/03/09 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/04/09 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S02/05/09 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo02/05/09 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/05/09 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu02/05/09 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz01/30/09 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon01/30/09 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon01/29/09 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/29/09 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/29/09 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart01/30/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe01/30/09 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/30/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/31/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent01/31/09 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe02/02/09 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel02/02/09 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu02/02/09 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent02/02/09 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe02/03/09 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent02/03/09 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel02/03/09 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon02/03/09 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu02/03/09 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/03/09 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S02/04/09 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/04/09 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen02/04/09 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel02/03/09 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon02/04/09 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats02/04/09 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx02/05/09 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S01/31/09 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/31/09 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/31/09 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/27/09 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S01/27/09 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent01/27/09 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen01/27/09 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel01/12/09 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/12/09 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/13/09 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo01/13/09 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter01/13/09 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath01/25/09 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo08/21/08 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S08/21/08 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart08/20/08 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/19/08 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/20/08 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/20/08 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter08/21/08 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang08/21/08 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf08/22/08 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/22/08 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/22/08 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/24/08 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/24/08 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul08/24/08 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/25/08 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/22/08 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink08/23/08 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/23/08 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink08/23/08 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/23/08 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS08/23/08 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/24/08 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess08/24/08 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink08/24/08 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel08/22/08 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman08/22/08 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel05/29/09 10:16 AM
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How do you spell green?