The File Abstraction

By: slacker (s.delete@this.lack.er), January 28, 2009 10:09 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 1/28/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>slacker (s@lack.er) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>>Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>>>slacker (s@lack.er) on 1/27/09 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>What if you have 5 applications wanting to write metadata
>>>>about a file? Keep 5 textfiles around in a directory?
>>>
>>>No, keep their own damn databases, and index it by the
>>>filename or something. Different programs should just
>>>keep their data separate. They shouldn't mix it up with
>>>files that they don't control.
>>
>>1176 words, and you start with this. If the application is
>>indexing the files by name, what happens when the name
>>changes?
>
>You really don't understand the problems, do you?

I understand your complaint. I just don't find it to be a compelling argument in the context of actual computer usage.

I commented on the security issue, and the only conclusion I can draw from your continued focus on this topic is that you consider metadata to be dangerous, and it should never leave someone's computer without some warning popping-up which says, "please review metadata before sending." Metadata already exists within files, and people don't bother to wipe it clean before transfering files around. I merely recommend externalizing the metadata outside of the file's data stream, but strictly associated with the file at a low level (xattrs). This can only improve the security offered to the user, because it's possible to write a singular tool to wipe xattrs, but it's impossible to do the same for metadata embedded within all the different types of file headers.

This approach also helps avoid the problem of applications throwing-out structured metadata in file headers. Opening a JPEG in Adobe Lightroom might modify EXIF data created by Apple Aperture. The solution to this is to use namespaces. You could have namespaces in structured file headers, but this has the same problem which I'd like to avoid in the first place: metadata changing the file's data stream itself.

I don't follow your point about how a file rename "may well strip the data off the file." Why is it a "may?" Is this some boogeyman about how some tools may not acknowledge xattrs yet? Well then I guess the 10 tools that perform low-level file copies would need to be updated. Sure, this would lead to problems if you ran in to a file system which doesn't handle xattrs, but who cares? I already asked for a world which respects xattrs. Instead, you choose to live in a world of lowest-common denominators. You can argue that I'm being idealistic, and you're being a realist, but you're not. Do you use spaces in your file names? Do you use greater than 8.3 naming of files? Do you have files larger than 4 gigabytes in size? Of course you do. You just ignore the file systems which don't support what you want to do, probably in the name of progress or something else idealistic.

Lastly, I don't even have a problem with your directory-based approach, so long as (A) there's some structure to it, and (B) the operating system has an understanding of the structure. In fact, it's already been done; they're called "bundles," and they're used in NEXTstep and OS X. They're wonderful from a usability perspective, but they certainly aren't any better than xattrs when it comes to protecting the user from inadvertently sending metadata which they'd otherwise like to keep private, which is something I'd like to see you acknowledge.
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S08/19/08 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/19/08 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink08/19/08 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/19/08 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang08/21/08 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen08/20/08 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker08/20/08 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert08/20/08 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie08/20/08 08:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter08/21/08 01:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler08/21/08 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie08/21/08 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/21/08 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S08/21/08 10:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter08/21/08 11:44 AM
                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S08/21/08 12:03 PM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang08/21/08 03:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter08/21/08 03:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/21/08 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel08/21/08 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs08/22/08 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi08/21/08 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter08/22/08 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo08/23/08 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/21/08 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/22/08 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert08/22/08 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS08/22/08 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter08/22/08 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert08/22/08 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon08/23/08 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert08/23/08 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds08/23/08 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/08/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/08/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala09/09/08 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max09/12/08 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS09/12/08 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax09/13/08 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu09/14/08 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax09/15/08 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu09/09/08 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/09/08 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax09/10/08 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon09/10/08 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler09/10/08 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S09/10/08 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/10/08 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax09/11/08 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo09/11/08 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds09/11/08 07:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 10:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS02/03/09 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/11/08 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/11/08 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel09/11/08 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/12/08 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous09/12/08 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon09/13/08 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo09/15/08 12:18 PM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter09/22/08 01:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu09/22/08 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds09/22/08 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo09/22/08 12:27 PM
                                                                      4K sectorsWes Felter09/22/08 06:03 PM
                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert09/22/08 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/22/08 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu09/23/08 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/22/08 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel09/23/08 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel09/23/08 12:10 PM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 05:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel09/23/08 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart09/23/08 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala09/22/08 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter09/22/08 11:25 AM
                                                                How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Rob Thorpe09/22/08 02:01 PM
                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead09/23/08 06:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler09/24/08 04:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath01/25/09 04:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S09/12/08 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S09/12/08 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess09/12/08 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous09/12/08 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala09/12/08 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S09/13/08 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds09/13/08 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert09/11/08 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds09/08/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS09/08/08 04:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang09/08/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert09/08/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink09/09/08 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo09/10/08 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/06/09 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous01/06/09 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 05:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:35 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 05:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/06/09 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/06/09 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:26 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon01/06/09 08:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel01/07/09 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon01/07/09 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser200001/07/09 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/07/09 10:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert01/09/09 12:21 PM
                                      FTL and FSiz01/09/09 07:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds01/09/09 09:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz01/10/09 02:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S01/10/09 03:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz01/10/09 05:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds01/10/09 07:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter01/11/09 05:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen01/11/09 01:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath01/25/09 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/25/09 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S01/26/09 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent01/26/09 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen01/27/09 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats01/28/09 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker01/28/09 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon01/28/09 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker01/29/09 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent01/29/09 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/29/09 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel01/29/09 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/29/09 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar01/29/09 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon01/29/09 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon01/29/09 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon02/01/09 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous02/01/09 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon02/02/09 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous02/02/09 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon02/02/09 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter02/01/09 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter02/01/09 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon02/02/09 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe02/02/09 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold02/02/09 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel02/02/09 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S02/03/09 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel02/03/09 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/04/09 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S02/05/09 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo02/05/09 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/05/09 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu02/05/09 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz01/30/09 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon01/30/09 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon01/29/09 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/29/09 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/29/09 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart01/30/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe01/30/09 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/30/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/31/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent01/31/09 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe02/02/09 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel02/02/09 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu02/02/09 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent02/02/09 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe02/03/09 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent02/03/09 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel02/03/09 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon02/03/09 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu02/03/09 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/03/09 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S02/04/09 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/04/09 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen02/04/09 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel02/03/09 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon02/04/09 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats02/04/09 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx02/05/09 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S01/31/09 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/31/09 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/31/09 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/27/09 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S01/27/09 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent01/27/09 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen01/27/09 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel01/12/09 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/12/09 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/13/09 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo01/13/09 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter01/13/09 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath01/25/09 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo08/21/08 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S08/21/08 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart08/20/08 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/19/08 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/20/08 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/20/08 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter08/21/08 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang08/21/08 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf08/22/08 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/22/08 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann08/22/08 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W08/24/08 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/24/08 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul08/24/08 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/24/08 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/25/08 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/22/08 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink08/23/08 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/23/08 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink08/23/08 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/23/08 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS08/23/08 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/24/08 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess08/24/08 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink08/24/08 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel08/22/08 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman08/22/08 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel05/29/09 10:16 AM
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How do you spell green?