Terminology seems too fuzzy to me

By: rwessel (robertwessel.delete@this.yahoo.com), February 2, 2009 12:33 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
hobold (no@working.address.sry) on 2/2/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>Rob Thorpe (rthorpe@realworldtech.com) on 2/2/09 wrote:
>---------------------------
>
>[...]
>>I think that people are getting worked up about this problem because it is, in
>>a way, like a political problem.
>
>I have zero prior experience in the matter of extended file attributes. But just
>from listening to the debate, I get the impression that there does not seem to be
>a good terminology for the matter being debated.
>
>People keep using the word "metadata" for, I believe, at least four distinct and
>very different kinds of information. The two bits that distinguish the categories are:
>
>1. hidden/visible
>This isn't really a boolean, because there are degrees of obscurity (e.g. tags
>embedded in a data file can effectively be hidden to users if there exists no application
>that makes them visible). But this criterion is sometimes a feature and sometimes
>an obstacle/a complication. And the decision if something _should_ be visible or
>hidden has a lot of non-technical implications, e.g. security. That's where politics sneaks in.
>
>2. Associated with the contents of the file/with the file as an opaque container
>An example for data associated with the content would be information about composer
>and performer of the music contained in some audio file. An example for data associated
>with just the file as container would be access rights or a date stamp of last backup.
>This is a more sharply defined criterion. (But there is a grey area, e.g. a search
>index hash based on the file contents.)
>
>Overall I see four categories of metadata, each of which has different uses and
>purposes. I am not at all sure that my classification is the right one, but maybe it can be a start.
>
>
>(There is even a third bit, but it is kind of arbitrary: should the metadata travel
>with the file or shouldn't it? I believe that is application dependent, and therefor a matter of taste, so to speak.)



Well, there is certainly a requirement (the desire to attach additional information to a file) that’s real. While it’s a very common requirement (which would suggest OS level support), unfortunately there’s not a real clear definition of what’s required.

There are issues of where to store the data, security issues (user A and B might both have data to store, and probably shouldn’t generally be able to see each others, or necessarily have write access to the target file at all), issues with management, visibility, backup, moving or renaming files, copying files, cleanup and some others.

In a sense this is similar to the conflict Linus has described several times between the hardware and software sides of the business – he’s complained more than once that certain hardware decisions have been made that something is “too hard” in hardware, and they’ve just punted the problem to the software guys, and assumed a magic solution there. Linus is a bit on the other side here - the application folks want the OS feature (because it’s too hard for them to implement), but it’s hard to do in the OS too (not least because it’s still ill defined), and he wants to punt the issue back to them, and let them figure it out – after all, it’s an application issue, no?

But basically all of the solutions so far have significant flaws, which certainly argues against a huge OS implementation, but in many ways leaving it to the applications without any OS help is even worse. Adding to the mess is the fact that no one approach is likely to be generally portable among OSs.

On the flip side, even an OS specific extension may be useful enough. The folks here are probably not going to be all that happy, but I’m thinking of the 99% of users like my mom, who can barely drag a file from one directory in Explorer to another.

Unfortunately it’s also hard to come up with a good middle ground. What features could the OS reasonably supply that would allow applications to solve the problem more effectively. A unique file ID (Apple did that) helps a bit, but alone doesn’t solve many of the problems. You can add notifications to some sort of file system plug-in whenever a file is manipulated (copied, moved, etc.), but then the OS needs to track each application that has associated itself with a file, or let all the plug-ins see all the filesystem changes, which sounds like a great way to horribly slow down your system (and make it unstable). Toss some of that in a higher level, like the UI, and you then immediate leave holes for messing things up with the lower level functions.

In short, the whole area is a mess, and everybody should refuse to deal with it, except, of course, that it’s something that *has* to be dealt with for usability reasons.
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                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/26/09 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen01/27/09 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/27/09 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen01/27/09 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker01/27/09 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats01/28/09 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker01/28/09 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/28/09 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon01/28/09 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker01/29/09 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent01/29/09 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/29/09 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel01/29/09 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/29/09 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar01/29/09 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds01/29/09 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon01/29/09 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon01/29/09 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon02/01/09 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous02/01/09 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon02/02/09 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous02/02/09 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon02/02/09 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter02/01/09 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter02/01/09 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon02/02/09 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe02/02/09 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold02/02/09 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel02/02/09 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S02/03/09 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu02/03/09 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen02/03/09 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel02/03/09 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon02/03/09 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/04/09 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S02/05/09 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo02/05/09 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker02/05/09 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu02/05/09 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz01/30/09 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon01/30/09 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon01/29/09 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/29/09 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/29/09 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart01/30/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe01/30/09 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker01/30/09 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/30/09 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/30/09 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous01/31/09 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel01/31/09 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent01/31/09 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe02/02/09 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel02/02/09 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu02/02/09 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent02/02/09 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe02/03/09 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent02/03/09 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel02/03/09 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon02/03/09 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu02/03/09 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/03/09 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S02/04/09 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon02/04/09 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent02/03/09 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler02/03/09 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen02/04/09 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel02/03/09 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon02/04/09 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats02/04/09 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx02/05/09 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S01/31/09 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon01/31/09 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu01/31/09 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB01/31/09 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu02/02/09 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe01/27/09 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu01/27/09 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S01/27/09 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent01/27/09 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen01/27/09 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel01/12/09 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds01/12/09 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel01/13/09 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo01/13/09 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter01/13/09 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath01/25/09 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo08/21/08 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink08/21/08 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S08/21/08 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel08/21/08 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink08/21/08 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart08/20/08 04:38 AM
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          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink08/23/08 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S08/23/08 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink08/23/08 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/23/08 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS08/23/08 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone08/23/08 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent08/23/08 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous08/24/08 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess08/24/08 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink08/24/08 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel08/22/08 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman08/22/08 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel05/29/09 10:16 AM
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How do you spell green?