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Name: Paul DeMone (pdemone@igs.net) 1/18/05

Linus Torvalds (torvalds@osdl.org) on 1/18/05 wrote:
---------------------------
>Paul DeMone (pdemone@igs.net) on 1/18/05 wrote:
>>
>>That depends on whether it uses a merchant chip or house
>>processor business model
>
>I know this is a mantra of yours, but I still don't get
>why you think "merchant chip" is so important, and why
>you think ia64 is so special wrt "merchant", that it
>apparently cannot apply to anybody else.

A merchant processor is a processor offered by a vendor
whose business model is selling processors to all takers
rather than bundled inside a system they sell. This is a
clear difference from house RISC model of the 1990s in
which Alphas, PA-RISCs, and POWER were generally not
sold on the open market and only available in systems
from the OEM that owned the architecture. Although some
RISCs like Alpha and SPARC were eventually offered to
other OEMs there were few takers because of competition
issues with the owner.

Why is IPF a merchant MPU?

1) Intel sells IPF processors to any interested party.
2) Intel does not sell IPF systems to end users.
3) IPF based systems are available from quite a few
different systems OEMs. With the recent move of the
HP MPU design team to Intel there is a level playing
field among all OEMs, both in perception and in reality.

None of the remaining high end RISCs are merchant chips.
Although IBM allows other OEMs to resell POWERx gear
it doesn't truly offer POWERx components to the open
market. And with POWERx primarily an IBM platform even
if IBM did offer devices on the open market the reality is
few OEMs would try to use POWERx components to
compete with IBM for system sales. Even if IBM initially
posed a level playing field history suggests the playing
field wouldn't stay level very long if competitors started
taking away IBM system sales using its own chips.

Why is IPF being a merchant so important? Easy, its a
more efficient business model and division of labour
than the house RISC business model. HW OEMs get
out of the increasingly costly processor development
business* and share the cost of IPF development with
many other OEMs in the price they pay Intel for the
processors. In return they get a high end MPU with at
least as much RAS, performance, and flexibility as
they likely could have afforded in their own design but
still retain the opportunity to differentiate and add value
to their own products with their unique system design
expertise. Their products also present one part of a
larger total market to ISVs than would a unqiue, vendor
specific ISA.

*Including programming tool chains and OS support.


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 Topics Posted by Date
   HP IPF server sales top $1B in 2004  Paul DeMone  1/17/05 10:50 AM 
      HP IPF server sales top $1B in 2004  José Javier Zarate  1/17/05 1:36 PM 
      Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  someone  1/17/05 2:41 PM 
         Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  Paul  1/17/05 3:03 PM 
            Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  someone  1/17/05 3:12 PM 
               Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  Dean Kent  1/17/05 3:42 PM 
                  Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  Groo  1/18/05 2:39 AM 
                     Windows 35% of Superdome installed base  Paul  1/18/05 2:43 PM 
      Weren't Alpha sales $1B a decade ago?  mulp  1/17/05 11:07 PM 
         $5.5B in 1997 (NT)  Singh, S.R.  1/17/05 11:17 PM 
            About half that  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 6:47 AM 
               So, the hurdle is over $15B for viability?  mulp  1/18/05 8:52 AM 
                  So, the hurdle is over $15B for viability?  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 9:13 AM 
                     Clearly IA32 meets $15B hurdle  mulp  1/18/05 9:39 AM 
                        Depends...  David Kanter  1/18/05 10:01 AM 
                  That's fallacious reasoning  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 10:46 AM 
                     That's fallacious reasoning  David Kanter  1/18/05 11:17 AM 
                        That's fallacious reasoning  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 11:32 AM 
                           That's fallacious reasoning  David Kanter  1/18/05 12:02 PM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 12:11 PM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  Wouter Tinus  1/18/05 12:32 PM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 12:41 PM 
                                 That's fallacious reasoning  anon  1/18/05 1:43 PM 
                                    That's fallacious reasoning  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 5:11 PM 
                                       That's fallacious reasoning  anon  1/18/05 11:43 PM 
                                          Thanks (NT)  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 6:44 AM 
                                 Thanks for the clarification (NT)  David Kanter  1/18/05 2:38 PM 
                     realistic assumptions imo (NT)  mas  1/18/05 11:28 AM 
                     merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/18/05 11:37 AM 
                        merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 12:38 PM 
                           merchant?  Andi Kleen  1/18/05 4:56 PM 
                              Bull supercomputer  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 6:09 PM 
                                 Bull supercomputer  Andi Kleen  1/18/05 7:35 PM 
                                 Bull supercomputer  José Javier Zarate  1/21/05 12:19 PM 
                           merchant?  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 6:06 PM 
                           merchant hw needs merchant software  mulp  1/18/05 9:31 PM 
                              Diagnosis: PC centric myopia  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 9:50 PM 
                                 Diagnosis: PC centric myopia  anonymous coward  1/20/05 8:23 PM 
                                    Diagnosis: PC centric myopia  Paul DeMone  1/20/05 9:17 PM 
                              merchant hw needs merchant software  worldtraveler  1/20/05 7:10 PM 
                                 merchant hw needs merchant software  José Javier Zarate  1/21/05 11:40 AM 
                           merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/19/05 9:35 AM 
                              merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 10:49 AM 
                                 merchant?  mas  1/19/05 11:12 AM 
                                 merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/19/05 11:39 AM 
                                    Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/19/05 12:26 PM 
                                       Notes on monopolies  Emil Briggs  1/19/05 1:22 PM 
                                          Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/19/05 1:32 PM 
                                             Notes on monopolies  cheesemower  1/20/05 5:00 AM 
                                                Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/20/05 7:55 AM 
                                                   Notes on monopolies  Pavel  1/21/05 5:43 AM 
                                                      Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/21/05 8:50 AM 
                                                         Notes on monopolies  Pavel  1/25/05 3:07 AM 
                                                            Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/25/05 8:22 AM 
                                                               Notes on monopolies  Pavel  1/26/05 4:49 AM 
                                                            Notes on monopolies  rwessel  1/26/05 3:49 PM 
                                             Notes on monopolies  crossbone  1/20/05 10:00 AM 
                                                Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/20/05 10:15 AM 
                                                   Notes on monopolies  cheesemower  1/21/05 6:50 AM 
                                                      Notes on monopolies  David Kanter  1/21/05 8:47 AM 
                                    merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 2:33 PM 
                                       merchant?  Emil Briggs  1/19/05 3:29 PM 
                                          merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 4:09 PM 
                                             merchant?  Scott Robinson  1/20/05 12:30 PM 
                                       merchant?  mas  1/19/05 4:48 PM 
                                       merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/19/05 5:30 PM 
                                          merchant?  Anonymous  1/19/05 6:22 PM 
                                             merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/19/05 7:54 PM 
                                                merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 9:33 PM 
                                                   merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/20/05 11:00 AM 
                                                      merchant?  Michael Menietti  1/20/05 12:30 PM 
                                                      merchant?  Dean Kent  1/20/05 1:58 PM 
                                                         merchant?  mas  1/20/05 2:48 PM 
                                                            NSK & OS/360  David Kanter  1/21/05 10:21 AM 
                                                               NSK & OS/360  D Sand  1/21/05 9:53 PM 
                                                                  NSK & OS/360  David Kanter  1/21/05 10:41 PM 
                                                                     NSK & OS/360  D Sand  1/22/05 11:33 AM 
                                                      merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/20/05 2:20 PM 
                                                      merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/20/05 2:29 PM 
                                                         merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/20/05 5:30 PM 
                                                            merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/20/05 7:18 PM 
                                                               merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/20/05 10:58 PM 
                                                                  two cents...  john evans  1/21/05 8:02 AM 
                                                                     one cent  Peter Huisken  1/21/05 8:55 AM 
                                                                        one cent but not recieved  john evans  1/21/05 10:24 AM 
                                                                           Dyslexic correction  john evans  1/21/05 10:46 AM 
                                                                     two cents...  Linus Torvalds  1/21/05 9:38 AM 
                                                                  merchant?  José Javier Zarate  1/21/05 12:17 PM 
                                                merchant?  n.d.  1/20/05 4:36 AM 
                                          merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/19/05 6:47 PM 
                                             merchant?  mas  1/20/05 5:14 AM 
                                                That's the heart of the matter  David Kanter  1/20/05 8:38 AM 
                                             merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/20/05 11:48 PM 
                                                merchant?  Anonymous  1/21/05 2:07 AM 
                                                   merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/21/05 10:49 AM 
                                                      merchant?  Andi Kleen  1/21/05 9:03 PM 
                                                         merchant?  Eugene Nalimov  1/22/05 10:21 AM 
                                                            merchant?  Niels Jørgen Kruse  1/22/05 1:35 PM 
                                                               merchant?  Eugene Nalimov  1/23/05 10:27 AM 
                                                                  merchant?  Michael S  1/23/05 11:04 AM 
                                                                  merchant?  Michael S  1/23/05 11:12 AM 
                                                                     merchant?  Eugene Nalimov  1/23/05 2:29 PM 
                                                                        merchant?  Michael S  1/23/05 3:58 PM 
                                                                           merchant?  Eugene Nalimov  1/23/05 8:12 PM 
                                                                              merchant?  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 8:29 AM 
                                                                                 merchant?  Michael S  1/24/05 9:00 AM 
                                                                                 merchant?  Eugene Nalimov  1/24/05 9:11 AM 
                                                                                 Itanium chips are not unreasonable price  Someone  1/24/05 10:22 AM 
                                                                                    Itanium chips are unreasonable priced  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 12:13 PM 
                                                                                       Itanium chips are unreasonable priced  someone  1/24/05 2:00 PM 
                                                                                          Thanks for admitting they too expensive [NT]  Vincent Diepeveen  1/25/05 8:31 AM 
                                                                                             zSeries too expensive...  Dean Kent  1/25/05 10:58 AM 
                                                                                       Itanium chips are unreasonable priced  Dave Mulvihill  1/24/05 2:51 PM 
                                                                                          Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Someone  1/26/05 8:40 AM 
                                                                                             Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Speedy  1/26/05 9:08 AM 
                                                                                                Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Paul DeMone  1/26/05 10:59 AM 
                                                                                                   Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Thu Nguyen  1/27/05 6:43 AM 
                                                                                                      Itanium systems are reasonably priced  someone  1/27/05 9:40 AM 
                                                                                                      Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Paul DeMone  1/27/05 11:29 AM 
                                                                                                         Itanium systems are reasonably priced  David Kanter  1/27/05 9:18 PM 
                                                                                                            Itanium systems are reasonably priced  jesper frimann  1/27/05 11:57 PM 
                                                                                                               List price summary  someone  1/28/05 4:39 AM 
                                                                                                               POWER and zSeries...  Dean Kent  1/28/05 7:27 AM 
                                                                                                                  POWER and zSeries...  Paul DeMone  1/28/05 10:10 AM 
                                                                                                                     POWER and zSeries...  rwessel  1/28/05 4:29 PM 
                                                                                                                  POWER and zSeries...  Andi Kleen  1/29/05 12:56 AM 
                                                                                                                     POWER and zSeries...  mas  1/29/05 12:58 PM 
                                                                                                            Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Paul DeMone  1/28/05 7:03 AM 
                                                                                                               Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Emil Briggs  1/28/05 7:41 AM 
                                                                                                                  Itanium systems are reasonably priced  Paul DeMone  1/28/05 11:04 AM 
                                                                                                                     POWER R&D is amortized over millions more PPC 970 (NT)  Chuck  1/28/05 5:15 PM 
                                                                                                                        Not really  Paul DeMone  1/29/05 9:58 AM 
                                                                                                                           Not really  mas  1/29/05 10:20 AM 
                                                                                                                           Not really  Linus Torvalds  1/29/05 11:34 AM 
                                                                                                                              Not really  Ricardo Bugalho  1/29/05 1:03 PM 
                                                                                                                                 Not really  mas  1/30/05 4:54 AM 
                                                                                                                                    Not really  Ricardo Bugalho  1/30/05 8:21 AM 
                                                                                                                              true, but I don't think that goes on the books(NT)  Michael Menietti  1/29/05 2:23 PM 
                                                                                                                              Not really  mas  1/31/05 4:35 PM 
                                                         merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/22/05 1:57 PM 
                                                            merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/22/05 2:56 PM 
                                                               merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/22/05 3:28 PM 
                                                                  merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/22/05 6:04 PM 
                                                                     merchant?  Andi Kleen  1/22/05 8:04 PM 
                                                                        merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/22/05 10:11 PM 
                                                                           merchant?  Andi Kleen  1/23/05 12:39 PM 
                                                                     merchant?  Linus Torvalds  1/22/05 10:11 PM 
                                                                        merchant?  Singh, S.R.  1/22/05 10:30 PM 
                                                                        Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Jouni Osmala  1/23/05 1:28 AM 
                                                                           Don't waste your breath on the troll  Paul DeMone  1/23/05 9:18 AM 
                                                                              Merchant?  Scott Robinson  1/23/05 10:51 AM 
                                                                                 IA64 as embedded MCU/MPU  David Kanter  1/23/05 11:06 AM 
                                                                                    IA64 as embedded MCU/MPU  Michael Menietti  1/23/05 11:27 AM 
                                                                                    embedded IA64 - no way  Richard Cownie  1/23/05 10:04 PM 
                                                                                       embedded IA64 - no way  Linus Torvalds  1/24/05 10:22 AM 
                                                                           Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Linus Torvalds  1/23/05 11:50 AM 
                                                                              Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  David Kanter  1/23/05 12:19 PM 
                                                                                 Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Linus Torvalds  1/23/05 12:59 PM 
                                                                                    Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  David Kanter  1/23/05 3:03 PM 
                                                                                       Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  null  1/23/05 10:26 PM 
                                                                                       David's DVD processor  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 8:44 AM 
                                                                                       Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Tratax  1/24/05 7:07 PM 
                                                                              Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Jouni Osmala  1/23/05 3:53 PM 
                                                                              Itanium architecture can scale to low end.  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 8:02 AM 
                                                                           Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 6:41 AM 
                                                                              Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  Jouni Osmala  1/24/05 7:50 AM 
                                                                                 Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  Vincent Diepeveen  1/24/05 11:40 AM 
                                                                                    Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  Jouni Osmala  1/25/05 5:46 AM 
                                                                                       Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  IntelUser  1/26/05 5:02 AM 
                                                                                          Itanium architecture can NOT scale to low end.  Paul DeMone  1/26/05 7:04 AM 
                                                                        merchant?  mas  1/23/05 7:36 AM 
                                                            merchant?  Anders Biehl  1/23/05 7:03 AM 
                                                               merchant? (link)  Anders Biehl  1/23/05 7:04 AM 
                                                         merchant?  Emil Briggs  1/22/05 8:09 PM 
                                                merchant?  Paul DeMone  1/21/05 6:46 AM 
                                 merchant?  cheesemower  1/20/05 5:16 AM 
                                    noise  Paul DeMone  1/20/05 6:48 AM 
                                       noise  cheesemower  1/21/05 6:51 AM 
                                          noise  Paul DeMone  1/21/05 6:58 AM 
                              merchant?  Aaron Spink  1/19/05 12:29 PM 
                           merchant?  Potatoswatter  1/22/05 2:29 AM 
                        merchant?  Marc M.  1/21/05 6:54 AM 
                     That's fallacious reasoning  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 12:30 PM 
                        That's fallacious reasoning  David Kanter  1/18/05 2:52 PM 
                           That's fallacious reasoning  Vincent Diepeveen  1/18/05 5:58 PM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  Jouni Osmala  1/19/05 4:27 AM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  Rakesh Malik  1/19/05 8:19 AM 
                              That's fallacious reasoning  David Kanter  1/19/05 8:38 AM 
               About half that  Singh, S.R.  1/18/05 1:29 PM 
               sounds like the reasons for invading Iraq  mulp  1/18/05 8:53 PM 
                  sounds like the reasons for invading Iraq  Singh, S.R.  1/18/05 9:24 PM 
                     sounds like the reasons for invading Iraq  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 10:07 PM 
                        sounds like the reasons for invading Iraq  Swede  1/19/05 7:29 AM 
                  Not to let facts ruin your fantasy but...  Paul DeMone  1/18/05 10:00 PM 
      Low price Win2k3 Server for Itanium  someone  1/18/05 3:33 AM 
      - with about 90% of that being for disk (NT)  KimballKinnison  1/18/05 12:59 PM 
         ??? (NT)  someone  1/18/05 4:28 PM 
      Just in case...  José Javier Zarate  2/4/05 2:05 AM 
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