80 bit FP

Article: PhysX87: Software Deficiency
By: Ian Ollmann (iano.delete@this.apple.com), July 18, 2010 11:49 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Kevin G (kevin@cubitdesigns.com) on 7/8/10 wrote:
---------------------------
>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 7/8/10 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>
>>But I can totally understand why an ABI would preserve 80b FP for those who *really
>>need* it. But 99% of people are fine with 64b, so I think pushing people in that
>>direction and making it difficult to use x87 is a reasonable choice.
>
>For those that were wanting 80 bit precision, I thought that there were rumblings
>that the successor to AVX would support 128 bit precision. Such a change would finally
>allow x87 support to be phased out.

Yeah, but do you seriously believe that a quad precision part would be faster than x87? Obviously, its possible if you throw enough hardware at it -- and maybe Intel would do it to claim the third IEEE-754-2008 binary format or something; They do take the standard more seriously than some -- but there is no market for quad to support that sort of investment in anything other than boutique parts and certainly the perf/Watt story would not be good. It would be better to spend the silicon on other features like a larger ROB or vector unit or unsigned vector compares or making LSU false aliasing less common or something. These things would benefit more code. I think their level of investment in x87 is about right. Its enough to make sure legacy code still functions without eating up a lot of chip area.

Math libraries at times will use the x87 in order to deliver highly accurate results for double precision math functions. The power function is a nice example, where you need more bits in the intermediate representation than in the final representation to get an accurate result. Without x87, you have to get the extra precision from elsewhere, either by storing values as a high + low sum and doing what amounts to multiprecision arithmetic on it (read: expensive), or where you are sufficiently talented and fortunate to be able to use, leverage some other higher precision hardware feature such as a fused multiply-add. Obviously, Intel doesn't currently do FMA so the choices are not good.


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TopicPosted ByDate
A bit off baseJohn Mann2010/07/07 06:04 AM
  A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/07 10:28 AM
    SSE vs x87Joel Hruska2010/07/07 11:53 AM
      SSE vs x87Michael S2010/07/07 12:07 PM
        SSE vs x87hobold2010/07/08 04:12 AM
      SSE vs x87David Kanter2010/07/07 01:55 PM
        SSE vs x87Andi Kleen2010/07/08 01:43 AM
          80 bit FPRicardo B2010/07/08 06:35 AM
            80 bit FPDavid Kanter2010/07/08 10:14 AM
              80 bit FPKevin G2010/07/08 01:12 PM
                80 bit FPIan Ollmann2010/07/18 11:49 PM
                  80 bit FPDavid Kanter2010/07/19 10:33 AM
                    80 bit FPAnil Maliyekkel2010/07/19 03:49 PM
                      80 bit FPrwessel2010/07/19 04:41 PM
                    80 bit FPMatt Waldhauer2010/07/21 10:11 AM
            80 bit FPEmil Briggs2010/07/22 08:06 AM
    A bit off baseJohn Mann2010/07/08 10:06 AM
      A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/08 10:27 AM
        A bit off baseIan Ameline2010/07/09 09:10 AM
          A bit off baseMichael S2010/07/10 01:13 PM
            A bit off baseIan Ameline2010/07/11 06:51 AM
  A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/07 08:46 PM
    A bit off baseAnon2010/07/07 11:47 PM
      A bit off baseanon2010/07/08 01:15 AM
        A bit off baseGabriele Svelto2010/07/08 03:11 AM
          Physics engine historyPeter Clare2010/07/08 03:49 AM
            Physics engine historyNull Pointer Exception2010/07/08 05:07 AM
              Physics engine historyRalf2010/07/08 02:09 PM
                Physics engine historyDavid Kanter2010/07/08 03:16 PM
                  Physics engine historysJ2010/07/08 10:36 PM
                    Physics engine historyGabriele Svelto2010/07/08 11:59 PM
                      Physics engine historysJ2010/07/13 05:35 AM
                    Physics engine historyDavid Kanter2010/07/09 08:25 AM
                      Physics engine historysJ2010/07/13 05:49 AM
                      Physics engine historyfvdbergh2010/07/13 06:27 AM
    A bit off baseJohn Mann2010/07/08 10:11 AM
      A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/08 10:31 AM
        150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/08 06:10 PM
          150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/08 06:53 PM
            150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/08 08:05 PM
              150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/08 08:31 PM
                150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/08 09:43 PM
                  150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/08 10:27 PM
                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Ian Ollmann2010/07/19 12:14 AM
                      150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/19 05:39 AM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 06:26 AM
                          Philosophy for achieving peakDavid Kanter2010/07/19 10:49 AM
                      150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 06:36 AM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 07:42 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/19 07:56 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 08:30 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Groo2010/07/19 01:31 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 03:17 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?Groo2010/07/19 05:18 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 05:18 PM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Mark Roulo2010/07/19 10:47 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/19 11:55 AM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Mark Roulo2010/07/19 12:00 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?anonymous422010/07/25 11:31 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 11:41 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 01:57 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 03:10 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 03:10 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 03:25 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 03:31 PM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/20 05:04 AM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?jrl2010/07/20 12:18 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?anonymous422010/07/25 11:00 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/25 11:52 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 05:15 PM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 06:27 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 08:54 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/19 10:45 PM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 08:14 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 10:56 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/21 07:16 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/21 08:05 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/22 01:09 AM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/22 06:53 PM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?gallier22010/07/23 04:58 AM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/25 07:35 AM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/25 10:49 AM
                                          150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/26 06:03 PM
                                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Michael S2010/07/28 12:38 AM
                                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Gabriele Svelto2010/07/28 12:44 AM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/23 03:55 PM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/23 11:48 PM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/24 01:36 AM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Vincent Diepeveen2010/07/27 04:37 PM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured??2010/07/27 10:42 PM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/28 04:55 AM
                                      Intel's clock rate projectionsAM2010/07/28 01:03 AM
                                        nostalgia ain't what it used to besomeone2010/07/28 04:38 AM
                                          Intel's clock rate projectionsAM2010/07/28 09:12 PM
                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/20 06:19 AM
                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessMark Christiansen2010/07/20 01:26 PM
                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/20 05:04 PM
                            Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessMatt Sayler2010/07/20 05:10 PM
                              Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/20 08:37 PM
                                Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/20 10:51 PM
                                  Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/21 01:16 AM
                                    Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/21 06:05 AM
                                      Software conventionsPaul A. Clayton2010/07/21 07:52 AM
                                        Software conventions?2010/07/22 04:43 AM
                                      SpeculationDavid Kanter2010/07/21 09:32 AM
                                        Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/22 09:58 PM
                                          Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/22 10:14 PM
                                          Pipelining affects the ISArwessel2010/07/22 11:03 PM
                                            Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/23 04:50 AM
                                            Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/23 05:10 AM
                                              Pipelining affects the ISAThiago Kurovski2010/07/23 01:59 PM
                                                Pipelining affects the ISAanon2010/07/24 06:35 AM
                                                  Pipelining affects the ISAThiago Kurovski2010/07/24 10:12 AM
                                          Pipelining affects the ISAGabriele Svelto2010/07/26 01:50 AM
                                            Pipelining affects the ISAIlleglWpns2010/07/26 04:14 AM
                                              Pipelining affects the ISAMichael S2010/07/26 02:33 PM
                                      Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/21 04:53 PM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/22 03:15 AM
                                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/22 03:27 AM
                                      Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/21 06:45 PM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/22 12:57 AM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/22 04:26 AM
                                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessDan Downs2010/07/22 07:14 AM
                                          Confusing and not very useful definitionDavid Kanter2010/07/22 11:41 AM
                                            Confusing and not very useful definition?2010/07/22 09:58 PM
                                              Confusing and not very useful definitionUngo2010/07/24 11:06 AM
                                                Confusing and not very useful definition?2010/07/25 09:23 PM
                            Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nesssomeone2010/07/20 07:02 PM
                              Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessThiago Kurovski2010/07/21 03:13 PM
            You are just quoting SINGLE precision flops? OMG what planet do you live? Vincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 09:26 AM
              The prior poster was talking about SP (NT)David Kanter2010/07/19 10:34 AM
                All FFT's need double precisionVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 01:02 PM
                  All FFT's need double precisionDavid Kanter2010/07/19 01:09 PM
                    All FFT's need double precisionVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 03:06 PM
                  All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/20 12:16 AM
                    All FFT's need double precision - notUngo2010/07/20 11:04 PM
                      All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/21 01:35 PM
                      All FFT's need double precision - notEduardoS2010/07/21 01:52 PM
                        All FFT's need double precision - notAnon2010/07/21 04:23 PM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notRicardo B2010/07/26 06:46 AM
                        I'm on a boat!anon2010/07/22 10:42 AM
                        All FFT's need double precision - notVincent Diepeveen2010/07/24 10:39 PM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notslacker2010/07/25 02:27 AM
                            All FFT's need double precision - notRicardo B2010/07/26 06:40 AM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notEduardoS2010/07/25 07:37 AM
                            All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/25 09:43 AM
                    All FFT's need double precision - notVincent Diepeveen2010/07/24 10:19 PM
      A bit off baseEduardoS2010/07/08 03:08 PM
        A bit off baseGroo2010/07/08 05:11 PM
          A bit off basejohn mann2010/07/08 05:58 PM
            All right...let's cool it...David Kanter2010/07/08 06:54 PM
    A bit off baseVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 02:36 PM
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