150 GFLOP/s measured?

Article: PhysX87: Software Deficiency
By: Groo (charlie.delete@this.semiaccurate.com), July 19, 2010 1:31 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
hobold (hobold@vectorizer.org) on 7/19/10 wrote:
---------------------------
>Aaron Spink (aaronspink@notearthlink.net) on 7/19/10 wrote:
>---------------------------
>[...]
>>Here's another way to think about it, why did CELL fail so badly?
>
>It failed not because the programmer can control every aspect of CELL, but because
>he _must_ control every aspect. (But when they do, you get marvels like God of War 3.)
>
>The OoOE machines have the advantage that they do a lot of the work without the
>help of the programmer. But there is a price: those machines do not yield full control
>to the programmer, not even in the case when said programmer _could_ do a better job.
>
>For folks like Ian or me (pardon my arrogance), that latter case is not quite as
>rare as it is in general. And if the task wasn't actively sabotaged by the machine,
>it might not be such a rare case at all.
>
>(I am not wishing for CELL to take over. But sometimes it would be nice if the
>oh so smart automatisms had a manual override.)

One related anecdote from a programmer friend who writes for PCs and consoles, mostly low level plumbing and middleware stuff. (I don't want to get more detailed than that, he likes his anonymity).

When the 'next gen' current consoles were imminent, he had been porting his stuff to them for a long time, and he told me that if you took the then current "last gen" consoles, coding the same thing for the 360 was a cost adder of about 2x. This was bad.

Then he said the cost adder for the PS3 was 5x over the 'last gen' parts. This was why he said the 360 would win. There was a lot more to the conversation than that, but everything he prognosticated basically played out in the intervening years.

The idea is that cost is just that, and if you can make it easier for the programmer, that is the overriding concern.

Doing some pretty simple math says that if an app takes a team of 5 a year to write, and a sixth person to write efficiently/optimize the hell out of as is discussed in this thread, then unless it is a widely used app, it probably isn't worth it.

If you have a salary of 75K for each person, that means you can throw $75K more hardware at your app, call it 15 more servers, to make up for the optimization losses. Tweak the numbers any way you want, more programmers, more expensive servers, and whatever you want, but the numbers look pretty grim for optimizations.

For consoles, the 'ultimate' modern 'bang on the hardware' machines, optimization is a pretty expensive proposition, and most companies do only what is absolutely necessary to make things pass the console maker's review process.

Those programs sell by the hundreds of K, and if they are a hard sell for optimization over 'fire and forget' hardware, what chance does a smaller team on a sub 8 digit budget have? Basically none.

And that is why OoO hardware wins, almost always. It is usually cheaper to throw another box at the problem. If it doesn't thread, well, then optimize, but we are starting to get into corner cases.

The other thing to keep in mind is that GoW3 is a really special case. (Note: I have not played any of the GoW games, but I will take your word that it is well done) It can expect to sell millions of copies, and is a PS3 exclusive.

This means Sony is heaping money and coders on it to make SURE it is 'teh aws0me' and a showcase for their hardware. Cost is an afterthought, Sony will suck down millions to make a point and put a halo, pun intended, on it.

When you are talking console exclusives, all rationality goes out the window because economics and real world issues are well past secondary concerns.

That said, they did optimize, and they did make it look cool. The effort shows. If they had to do it in the real world with a real budget, it would not have happened.

-Charlie
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TopicPosted ByDate
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  A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/07 10:28 AM
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      A bit off baseanon2010/07/08 01:15 AM
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                      Physics engine historyfvdbergh2010/07/13 06:27 AM
    A bit off baseJohn Mann2010/07/08 10:11 AM
      A bit off baseDavid Kanter2010/07/08 10:31 AM
        150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/08 06:10 PM
          150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/08 06:53 PM
            150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/08 08:05 PM
              150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/08 08:31 PM
                150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/08 09:43 PM
                  150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/08 10:27 PM
                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Ian Ollmann2010/07/19 12:14 AM
                      150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/19 05:39 AM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 06:26 AM
                          Philosophy for achieving peakDavid Kanter2010/07/19 10:49 AM
                      150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 06:36 AM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 07:42 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Aaron Spink2010/07/19 07:56 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 08:30 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Groo2010/07/19 01:31 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 03:17 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?Groo2010/07/19 05:18 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 05:18 PM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Mark Roulo2010/07/19 10:47 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/19 11:55 AM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Mark Roulo2010/07/19 12:00 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?anonymous422010/07/25 11:31 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 11:41 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 01:57 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 03:10 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/19 03:10 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 03:25 PM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 03:31 PM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Richard Cownie2010/07/20 05:04 AM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?jrl2010/07/20 12:18 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?anonymous422010/07/25 11:00 AM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/25 11:52 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 05:15 PM
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                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Anon2010/07/19 08:54 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/19 10:45 PM
                        150 GFLOP/s measured?hobold2010/07/19 08:14 AM
                          150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/19 10:56 AM
                            150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/21 07:16 PM
                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Linus Torvalds2010/07/21 08:05 PM
                                150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/22 01:09 AM
                                  150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/22 06:53 PM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?gallier22010/07/23 04:58 AM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/25 07:35 AM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?David Kanter2010/07/25 10:49 AM
                                          150 GFLOP/s measured?a reader2010/07/26 06:03 PM
                                            150 GFLOP/s measured?Michael S2010/07/28 12:38 AM
                                              150 GFLOP/s measured?Gabriele Svelto2010/07/28 12:44 AM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/23 03:55 PM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/23 11:48 PM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?anon2010/07/24 01:36 AM
                                    150 GFLOP/s measured?Vincent Diepeveen2010/07/27 04:37 PM
                                      150 GFLOP/s measured??2010/07/27 10:42 PM
                                        150 GFLOP/s measured?slacker2010/07/28 04:55 AM
                                      Intel's clock rate projectionsAM2010/07/28 01:03 AM
                                        nostalgia ain't what it used to besomeone2010/07/28 04:38 AM
                                          Intel's clock rate projectionsAM2010/07/28 09:12 PM
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                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessMark Christiansen2010/07/20 01:26 PM
                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/20 05:04 PM
                            Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessMatt Sayler2010/07/20 05:10 PM
                              Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/20 08:37 PM
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                                        Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/22 09:58 PM
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                                            Pipelining affects the ISA?2010/07/23 05:10 AM
                                              Pipelining affects the ISAThiago Kurovski2010/07/23 01:59 PM
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                                            Pipelining affects the ISAIlleglWpns2010/07/26 04:14 AM
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                                      Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/21 04:53 PM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/22 03:15 AM
                                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/22 03:27 AM
                                      Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessslacker2010/07/21 06:45 PM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessanon2010/07/22 12:57 AM
                                        Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-ness?2010/07/22 04:26 AM
                                          Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessDan Downs2010/07/22 07:14 AM
                                          Confusing and not very useful definitionDavid Kanter2010/07/22 11:41 AM
                                            Confusing and not very useful definition?2010/07/22 09:58 PM
                                              Confusing and not very useful definitionUngo2010/07/24 11:06 AM
                                                Confusing and not very useful definition?2010/07/25 09:23 PM
                            Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nesssomeone2010/07/20 07:02 PM
                              Separate the OoO-ness from speculative-nessThiago Kurovski2010/07/21 03:13 PM
            You are just quoting SINGLE precision flops? OMG what planet do you live? Vincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 09:26 AM
              The prior poster was talking about SP (NT)David Kanter2010/07/19 10:34 AM
                All FFT's need double precisionVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 01:02 PM
                  All FFT's need double precisionDavid Kanter2010/07/19 01:09 PM
                    All FFT's need double precisionVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 03:06 PM
                  All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/20 12:16 AM
                    All FFT's need double precision - notUngo2010/07/20 11:04 PM
                      All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/21 01:35 PM
                      All FFT's need double precision - notEduardoS2010/07/21 01:52 PM
                        All FFT's need double precision - notAnon2010/07/21 04:23 PM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notRicardo B2010/07/26 06:46 AM
                        I'm on a boat!anon2010/07/22 10:42 AM
                        All FFT's need double precision - notVincent Diepeveen2010/07/24 10:39 PM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notslacker2010/07/25 02:27 AM
                            All FFT's need double precision - notRicardo B2010/07/26 06:40 AM
                          All FFT's need double precision - notEduardoS2010/07/25 07:37 AM
                            All FFT's need double precision - notMichael S2010/07/25 09:43 AM
                    All FFT's need double precision - notVincent Diepeveen2010/07/24 10:19 PM
      A bit off baseEduardoS2010/07/08 03:08 PM
        A bit off baseGroo2010/07/08 05:11 PM
          A bit off basejohn mann2010/07/08 05:58 PM
            All right...let's cool it...David Kanter2010/07/08 06:54 PM
    A bit off baseVincent Diepeveen2010/07/19 02:36 PM
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