Intel might be moving from ISA to platform

Article: Parallelism at HotPar 2010
By: Anon (no.delete@this.thanks.com), August 23, 2010 3:55 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Steve Underwood (steveu@coppice.org) on 8/23/10 wrote:
---------------------------
>Anon (no@thanks.com) on 8/22/10 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Steve Underwood (steevu@coppice.org) on 8/22/10 wrote:
>>---------------------------
>>>hobold (hobold@vectorizer.org) on 8/19/10 wrote:
>>>---------------------------
>>>>Steve Underwood (steveu@coppice.org) on 8/18/10 wrote:
>>>>---------------------------
>>>>[...]
>>>>>It took a lot of time for people to get the best out of hand shuffling
>>>>>things with SSSE3, and the next generation core made this complexity something that
>>>>>needs to be ripped out of the code. AAAHHHHH!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/2010_siggraph_bof_opencl/OpenCL-BOF-Intel-SIGGRAPH-Jul10.pdf
>>
>>This starts to show where NVidia (for all their faults) has been pushing hard -
>>they already have reasonably OpenCL and other compilers targeting deep/wide systems.
>>
>>Intel are going there also, which is of course a great thing.
>>
>>It does however look to me like Intel is playing the same game people seem incensed
>>at NVidia for doing here, unless I have missed something their base C implementation
>>is running single threaded on a single core, versus 4/8 SMD units for their OpenCL version..
>>In some ways I agree with that view as part of the 'job' is parallelising the implementation,
>>and OpenCL makes that easier (that C) (once you get around to understanding it..).
>>However, people jumped all over that view with the NVidia comparisons.. so I guess it applies here also.
>>But again, it is really a non-optimised C versus an optimised SSE/Threaded implementation.
>
>These are two different things.
>
>Intel are showing the capabilities of OpenCL. That you can take a naive single
>threaded C implementation, and drive it up to nearly the hand tuned capabilities
>of the hardware, in a quick to code and fairly portable way. One problem doesn't
>really illustrate these capabilities very well. A selection of diverse number crunching
>problems would give a more meaningful picture, but the Intel document is fine as far as it goes.

Yes and No, I am also quite sure (and have had the same message from Intel) that they now want people to see the 'light' of MT/SSE code, and how 'bad' old style code is, which is not that far from the NVidia message, really...

>People complain about the nVidia documents because they try to imply the GPU is
>capable of X times the speed of the CPU (for huge values of X). However, they only
>use a fraction of the CPU's capabilities, or they use an ancient CPU (sometimes
>both). If you look through a number these comparison documents, they follow the
>standard pattern of work produced for hire by academics. The first couple of pages
>show some exciting figures, to please the sponsor. Further in you find the detailed
>material making more meaningful comparisons. The academics must include that, to
>maintain credibility and be able to face themselves in the mirror each day. I seldom
>have any complaints about the detailed material. If you look through it properly,
>it usually implies a worthwhile speedup for a problem that fits the GPU well. Its
>never the spectacular improvement from the cover page, though.

I also think a lot of the BS numbers are not even NVidia, but actually the Academics trying to show how well they did with their new project, another very common situation..

We also need to remember that a lot of the numbers we saw were pre-Fermi hardware against pre-i7 hardware, and both sides have made significant advances - a lot of the claims of much smaller gains I have now seen are now i7 versus pre-fermi...
both 'sides' made big gains this round, although I would give Intel the best total %age gain..

>
>It will be interesting to see how much the latest, more generalised, GPUs widen
>the range of problems that speed up significantly. It seems they should be appearing
>about now. If they start showing worthwhile gains for problems involving numerous
>short vectors (e.g. the endless 40 element vectors in the G.729 speech codec), I
>might start to get really interested in them.

Exactly. I *really* with people would realise that GP in GPU is in comparison to a 'standard' G only GPU, and GP is not meant to be the equivalent of a generic CPU...
Still, people love their strawmen..

Granularity is still a BIG problem for GPUs, and this is much about the drivers (although I prefer to call it OS) that hardware - they are still very immature in these areas.
One of the more difficult areas for some problems is simple latency, something rarely addressed. Just ask Oracle ;)
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TopicPosted ByDate
Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineDavid Kanter2010/07/27 08:29 AM
  Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineAnon2010/07/27 02:57 PM
    Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineDavid Kanter2010/07/27 11:48 PM
      Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineAnon2010/07/28 03:44 PM
        Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineanon2010/07/28 05:10 PM
        CPU+GPUDavid Kanter2010/07/29 12:38 PM
          CPU+GPUMark Christiansen2010/07/30 07:36 AM
            CPU+GPUhobold2010/07/30 07:54 AM
              CPU+GPUGabriele Svelto2010/07/30 08:18 AM
                CPU+GPUhobold2010/07/30 03:46 PM
              CPU+GPUAaron Spink2010/08/02 06:32 PM
                CPU+GPUhobold2010/08/03 04:33 AM
                  CPU+GPURicardo B2010/08/03 05:19 AM
            CPU+GPU - the software problemVincent Diepeveen2010/07/31 05:50 PM
              CPU+GPU - the software problemmpx2010/08/02 12:19 PM
                CPU+GPU - the software problemRichard Cownie2010/08/02 01:48 PM
                  CPU+GPU - the software problemGabriele Svelto2010/08/03 12:10 AM
                    CPU+GPU - the software problemhobold2010/08/03 04:41 AM
                      CPU+GPU - the software problemRichard Cownie2010/08/03 06:17 AM
                        CPU+GPU - the software problemhobold2010/08/04 07:45 AM
                          NVidia in a holeRichard Cownie2010/08/04 08:23 AM
                            NVidia in a holeRohit2010/08/04 08:33 AM
                              NVidia in a holeRichard Cownie2010/08/04 08:50 AM
                                NVidia in a holeRohit2010/08/05 07:31 AM
                                  NVidia in a holeGroo2010/08/05 02:08 PM
                                NVidia in a holeGroo2010/08/05 02:07 PM
                              NVidia in a holeMark Roulo2010/08/04 09:26 AM
                                NVidia in a holeLaughabee2010/08/18 08:28 AM
                            Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Mark Roulo2010/08/04 09:29 AM
                              Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Richard Cownie2010/08/04 09:42 AM
                                Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Mark Roulo2010/08/04 09:55 AM
                                  Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Linus Torvalds2010/08/04 11:35 AM
                                    "profit" is subjectiveRichard Cownie2010/08/04 11:49 AM
                                      "profit" is subjectivea reader2010/08/06 04:54 AM
                                        no price warRichard Cownie2010/08/06 07:18 AM
                                  Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Aaron Spink2010/08/04 12:19 PM
                                  Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Konrad Schwarz2010/08/06 08:13 AM
                                CPU lineup != GPU lineupRohit2010/08/05 07:43 AM
                                  CPU lineup != GPU lineupRichard Cownie2010/08/05 08:12 AM
                                    CPU lineup != GPU lineupRohit2010/08/05 08:37 AM
                                      CPU lineup != GPU lineupRichard Cownie2010/08/05 08:56 AM
                                        CPU lineup != GPU lineupRohit2010/08/05 11:19 AM
                                          CPU lineup != GPU lineuphobold2010/08/06 04:08 AM
                                            CPU lineup != GPU lineupRohit2010/08/06 07:24 AM
                                              CPU lineup != GPU lineuphobold2010/08/06 07:41 AM
                              Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?David Hess2010/08/04 11:31 AM
                              Can nVidia survive without a sub-$100 GPU market?Ricardo B2010/08/04 01:16 PM
                              Semiconductor economicsDavid Kanter2010/08/05 09:13 AM
                                Semiconductor economicsRichard Cownie2010/08/05 09:51 AM
                                  NV buying ViA could shake up thingsRohit2010/08/05 11:09 AM
                                    NV buying ViA could shake up thingsRichard Cownie2010/08/05 11:25 AM
                                      Not likelyDavid Kanter2010/08/05 02:39 PM
                                        Not likelyrandom2010/08/05 02:49 PM
                                          Not likelyAaron Spink2010/08/05 03:18 PM
                                        Not likelyGroo2010/08/05 10:05 PM
                                        Not likelyRohit2010/08/06 07:25 AM
                                    NV buying ViA could shake up thingsGroo2010/08/05 10:02 PM
                                    NV buying ViA could shake up thingsehud2010/08/06 01:53 AM
                                      NV buying ViA could shake up thingsRohit2010/08/06 07:30 AM
                                        NV buying ViA could shake up thingsKevin G2010/08/06 05:54 PM
                                          ViA buying NV could shake up thingsBrendan2010/08/19 06:23 AM
                                        NV buying ViA could shake up thingsGroo2010/08/06 08:24 PM
                            NVidia in a holempx2010/08/04 12:01 PM
                              NVidia in a holeRichard Cownie2010/08/04 12:31 PM
                                NVidia in a holercf2010/08/04 03:40 PM
                              NVidia in a holeRohit2010/08/05 07:51 AM
                              NVidia in a holeGroo2010/08/05 09:50 PM
                              NVidia in a holeAaron Spink2010/08/05 11:52 PM
                          Anyone else wish Intel would buy Nvidia ? (NT)Silent2010/08/07 01:30 AM
                            Hell noa2010/08/07 08:37 PM
                        CPU+GPU - the software problemno thanks2010/08/04 07:54 PM
                          CPU+GPU - the software problemJouni Osmala2010/08/05 01:41 AM
                            CPU+GPU - the software problemIntelUser20002010/08/05 07:54 PM
                              CPU+GPU - the software problemJouni Osmala2010/08/05 09:36 PM
                            CPU+GPU - the software problemLinus Torvalds2010/08/06 08:08 AM
                              CPU+GPU - the software problemanonymous2010/08/06 09:39 AM
                                CPU+GPU - the software problemLinus Torvalds2010/08/06 10:56 AM
                                  non-existent Via+NV vs real OntarioRichard Cownie2010/08/06 12:12 PM
                              CPU+GPU - the software problemkoby m.2010/08/07 02:06 AM
                  CPU+GPU - the software problemhobold2010/08/03 04:48 AM
                CPU+GPU - the software problemhobold2010/08/03 04:45 AM
                  CPU+GPU - the software problemRichard Cownie2010/08/03 06:22 AM
          CPU+GPUAnon2010/07/30 09:11 PM
            CPU+GPUanon2010/07/31 03:19 AM
            CPU+GPUAaron Spink2010/08/02 06:45 PM
          100x speedups -- here we go againAM2010/08/02 01:37 AM
            100x speedups -- here we go againanon2010/08/02 03:32 AM
              100x speedups -- here we go againanon2010/08/02 11:14 PM
            GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUMark Roulo2010/08/02 09:41 AM
              GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUMichael S2010/08/02 03:31 PM
                GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUanon2010/08/02 09:36 PM
                  GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUMichael S2010/08/03 12:41 AM
                    GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUMark Roulo2010/08/03 08:22 AM
                      GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPURohit2010/08/04 07:08 AM
                      There is reasonable explanation...Jouni Osmala2010/08/04 10:10 PM
                  GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUMark Roulo2010/08/03 08:19 AM
              simple reality check for youAM2010/08/03 01:45 AM
                simple reality check for younone2010/08/03 07:27 AM
                  simple reality check for youAM2010/08/03 11:50 PM
                    simple reality check for youanon2010/08/04 12:06 AM
                      simple reality check for youAM2010/08/05 03:51 AM
                        catch the same boat as everyone else next time (NT)anon2010/08/05 04:44 AM
                Simple reality checkDavid Kanter2010/08/03 08:24 AM
                  Simple reality checkGabriele Svelto2010/08/03 10:51 PM
                  Simple reality checkAM2010/08/03 11:57 PM
                    Simple reality checkanon2010/08/04 12:12 AM
                      Simple reality checkAM2010/08/05 03:59 AM
                        Simple reality checkanon2010/08/05 04:47 AM
                          Study the papers, troll (NT)AM2010/08/06 12:01 AM
                    Simple reality checkhobold2010/08/04 05:05 AM
                    Simple reality checkDean Kent2010/08/04 09:30 AM
                      Simple reality checkMark Roulo2010/08/04 09:59 AM
                      Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark RouloAM2010/08/05 03:57 AM
                        Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark Roulonone2010/08/05 04:22 AM
                          Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark RouloAM2010/08/06 12:04 AM
                        Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark Roulonone2010/08/05 04:38 AM
                          Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark Rouloanon2010/08/05 04:43 AM
                            Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark RouloAM2010/08/06 12:11 AM
                              Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark Rouloanon2010/08/06 07:52 AM
                          Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark RouloAM2010/08/06 12:10 AM
                            Suggestion for David Kanter and Mark Roulonone2010/08/06 01:35 AM
                              price doesn't matter only in theories (NT)AM2010/08/09 02:13 AM
                            Not apple4appleMichael S2010/08/06 05:13 AM
                              Not apple4appleAM2010/08/09 02:09 AM
                                Not apple4appleMichael S2010/08/09 04:35 AM
                                  Not apple4appleAM2010/08/10 01:05 AM
                                    Not apple4applenone2010/08/10 01:38 AM
                                      Back to topicAM2010/08/11 12:03 AM
                                      Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/13 04:28 AM
                                        Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)none2010/08/13 09:10 AM
                                          Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/16 01:14 AM
                                            Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)none2010/08/16 06:29 AM
                                              One example of 1000X shown to be wrong.sea2010/08/16 07:55 PM
                                                You're short of some factsAM2010/08/17 01:13 AM
                                                  Maybe you need to read beyond the PR statementSteve Underwood2010/08/17 02:39 AM
                                                    Maybe you need to read beyond the PR statementGroo2010/08/17 08:18 PM
                                                    check the hw they usedAM2010/08/18 03:33 AM
                                                Please realize what Monte Carlo meansVincent Diepeveen2010/08/18 03:28 AM
                                              Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/17 01:18 AM
                                        Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)anon2010/08/14 01:22 AM
                                          Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/16 01:15 AM
                                            Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)anon2010/08/16 02:10 PM
                                              Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/17 01:15 AM
                                                Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)Michael S2010/08/17 02:58 AM
                                                  Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/18 03:17 AM
                                                    Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)gallier22010/08/18 04:52 AM
                                                    Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)Michael S2010/08/18 05:33 AM
                                                      Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)Gabriele Svelto2010/08/18 06:11 AM
                                                      Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)Steve Underwood2010/08/18 04:03 PM
                                                        Intel might be moving from ISA to platformhobold2010/08/19 03:58 AM
                                                          Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/22 07:00 PM
                                                            Intel might be moving from ISA to platformAnon2010/08/22 10:43 PM
                                                              Intel might be moving from ISA to platformajensen2010/08/23 12:37 AM
                                                                Intel might be moving from ISA to platformMichael S2010/08/23 02:13 AM
                                                                  Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/23 02:35 AM
                                                                  Intel might be moving from ISA to platformhobold2010/08/26 04:37 AM
                                                                Intel might be moving from ISA to platformAnon2010/08/23 03:47 PM
                                                              Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/23 02:25 AM
                                                                Intel might be moving from ISA to platformhobold2010/08/23 03:03 AM
                                                                  Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/23 04:26 AM
                                                                Intel might be moving from ISA to platformAnon2010/08/23 03:55 PM
                                                                Intel might be moving from ISA to platformrwessel2010/08/23 06:41 PM
                                                                  Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/23 07:30 PM
                                                                    Intel might be moving from ISA to platformrwessel2010/08/23 09:50 PM
                                                                      Intel might be moving from ISA to platformSteve Underwood2010/08/23 10:34 PM
                                                                        Intel might be moving from ISA to platformrwessel2010/08/24 01:03 AM
                                                              Intel might be moving from ISA to platformIan Ollmann2010/08/23 09:21 PM
                                                          Intel might be moving from ISA to platformajensen2010/08/22 10:36 PM
                                                            Intel might be moving from ISA to platformIan Ollmann2010/08/23 09:45 PM
                                                      Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)AM2010/08/19 01:29 AM
                                                        Final note (and some remarks on Intel's paper)Richard2010/08/19 04:51 AM
                                                          I stand corrected.Michael S2010/08/19 05:30 AM
                simple reality check for youanonymous2010/08/03 10:25 AM
                  simple reality check for youAM2010/08/03 11:47 PM
                    simple reality check for youanonymous2010/08/04 10:17 AM
                      simple reality check for youanon2010/08/04 08:33 PM
                      SPECint/FPAM2010/08/05 03:49 AM
                  simple reality check for youRohit2010/08/13 08:31 PM
                    simple reality check for youhobold2010/08/16 06:29 AM
              maybe texture caches ?Richard Cownie2010/08/03 09:27 AM
                maybe texture caches ?none2010/08/03 09:59 AM
                  maybe texture caches ?Richard Cownie2010/08/03 10:15 AM
                    maybe texture caches ?Mark Roulo2010/08/03 10:23 AM
                      maybe texture caches ?Richard Cownie2010/08/03 10:33 AM
                        maybe texture caches ?Mark Roulo2010/08/03 10:37 AM
                          the Hess paperRichard Cownie2010/08/03 11:16 AM
                    maybe texture caches ?Aaron Spink2010/08/03 01:23 PM
                      maybe texture caches ?Mark Roulo2010/08/03 04:13 PM
                        maybe texture caches ?Michael S2010/08/04 01:47 AM
                  maybe texture caches ?Michael S2010/08/03 10:23 AM
                maybe texture caches ?Mark Roulo2010/08/03 10:19 AM
                  maybe texture caches ?Richard Cownie2010/08/03 10:42 AM
                Cache to cache comparisonDavid Kanter2010/08/03 12:28 PM
                  Cache to cache comparisonRichard Cownie2010/08/03 12:52 PM
                    Cache to cache comparisonDavid Kanter2010/08/03 01:21 PM
                      Cache to cache comparisonRichard Cownie2010/08/03 03:55 PM
                      Cache to cache comparisonGabriele Svelto2010/08/03 11:23 PM
                        Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/04 04:24 PM
                          Nehalem vs Core2IntelUser20002010/08/04 07:26 PM
                          Nehalem vs Core2Gabriele Svelto2010/08/04 10:51 PM
                            Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/05 03:27 AM
                              Nehalem vs Core2Gabriele Svelto2010/08/05 06:00 AM
                                Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/05 07:10 AM
                                  Nehalem vs Core2Gabriele Svelto2010/08/05 07:41 AM
                                    Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/05 10:02 AM
                              Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/05 10:12 AM
                          Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/05 12:36 AM
                            Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/05 08:33 AM
                              Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/05 09:44 AM
                                Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/05 10:03 AM
                                  Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/05 04:21 PM
                                    Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/05 07:15 PM
                                      I'm wrong, you're right - i's 2 dieRichard Cownie2010/08/05 07:21 PM
                                    Nehalem vs Core2Richard Cownie2010/08/06 08:12 AM
                                      Nehalem vs Core2Michael S2010/08/06 08:33 AM
                                      Nehalem L1 cache latency a hedge for higher clock speeds?Mark Roulo2010/08/06 08:36 AM
                                        Nehalem L1 cache latency a hedge for higher clock speeds?Kevin G2010/08/07 10:14 AM
                                          Nehalem L1 cache latency a hedge for higher clock speeds?IntelUser20002010/08/07 02:32 PM
                                        Nehalem L1 cache latency a hedge for higher clock speeds?someone2010/08/07 02:35 PM
                          difference between C2D/C2Q chipsetsMichael S2010/08/05 12:57 AM
                          Nehalem core goals ... my takeMark Roulo2010/08/06 07:53 AM
                            Bulldozer single-threadRichard Cownie2010/08/06 04:05 PM
                          Nehalem vs Core2Carlie Coats2010/08/07 08:41 AM
                            scalingMichael S2010/08/07 11:12 AM
                            why X5460?Michael S2010/08/07 11:12 AM
                              why X5460?Carlie Coats2010/08/08 04:34 AM
                                why X5460?Michael S2010/08/08 04:42 AM
                                  Polling/PIO based COMM libraries?Michael S2010/08/08 05:14 AM
                    Cache to cache comparisonAnts Aasma2010/08/04 10:00 AM
                      Cache to cache comparisonRichard Cownie2010/08/04 10:08 AM
                        Cache to cache comparisonAnts Aasma2010/08/04 11:28 AM
                      Cache to cache comparisonMichael S2010/08/04 11:33 AM
                        Cache to cache comparisonMark Roulo2010/08/04 12:29 PM
                          Cache to cache comparisonAnts Aasma2010/08/04 01:10 PM
                            Fermi and G200 instruction latencyMark Roulo2010/08/04 02:10 PM
                              Fermi and G200 instruction latencyAnts Aasma2010/08/04 03:01 PM
                        Cache to cache comparisonAnts Aasma2010/08/04 01:00 PM
                        Register read comparisonDavid Kanter2010/08/05 09:16 AM
                          Register read comparisonGabriele Svelto2010/08/05 11:42 PM
                maybe texture caches ?Aaron Spink2010/08/03 01:17 PM
              GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPURichard2010/08/09 04:58 AM
                GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUnone2010/08/09 05:19 AM
                  GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPUVincent Diepeveen2010/08/24 07:18 AM
                    Forget it, they won't hear itanon2010/08/24 04:37 PM
                    GPU raw H/W only has about a 10x advantage over a CPURichard2010/08/25 01:03 PM
                This forum supports pre tagMichael S2010/08/09 06:03 AM
    Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineRich Vuduc2010/07/28 10:24 AM
      Tarek's Hotpar 2010 article onlineAnon2010/07/28 04:18 PM
  Low hanging fruitMoritz2011/02/03 12:20 PM
    Low hanging fruitJukka Larja2011/02/06 05:01 AM
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