By: anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com), January 20, 2011 12:18 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Aaron Spink (aaronspink@notearthlink.net) on 1/19/11 wrote:
---------------------------
>anon (anon@anon.com) on 1/19/11 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Which mapping tables are these, and where are they stored?
>>
>They are the mapping tables between the logical interface presented to the storage
>controller(LBA, etc) and the physical block/page/device location within the SSD.
>All modern functioning SSDs have them. Total size and granularity of the tables
>are primarily a function of interface block size, SSD size (aka 80GB/160GB), power
>loss to power fault time (aka someone pulled the plug on the server/hit the power switch), etc.
>
>The various schemes used to store the tables vary greatly with controller design.
>Some controllers use small on chip sliding tables and back fill to reserved flash
>storage space. Some use high granularity on chip and query tags in flash for intra-block/page
>information. Others use external SRAM/DRAM/PRAM to enable larger table, faster access, and better granularity.
SRAM/DRAM? Battery backed? I'd be surprised if that was the case, on a commodity SSD.
Anyway, right. So when you say "it's free, it just has to update this table", you mean that an IO has to go down the wire, and the device has to do some processing and potentially some banging on NAND (or PCM or whatever) or even this SRAM, and then send the completion back up.
That's only "free" for some restricted definitions of "free".
>The mapping table scheme and GC schemes largely are the differentials in SSD(flash
>based) performance given that almost everyone is using the same number of channels
>and same speed flash ICs. The highest performing devices (aka enterprise random
>access small block size which is the hardest case) tend to rely on external DRAM,
>512B granularity, and capacitors. It is also possible to go external DRAM, 512B
>granularity and journal/rebuild on power on but much more complicated algorithm wise.
And even on those, TRIM will be a total loss if the filesystem rewrites the same LBA before the old one is garbage collected.
So when you say "pretty obvious", this is also only true for some definitions of obvious.
And that's why doing trim in the filesystem is hard.
---------------------------
>anon (anon@anon.com) on 1/19/11 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Which mapping tables are these, and where are they stored?
>>
>They are the mapping tables between the logical interface presented to the storage
>controller(LBA, etc) and the physical block/page/device location within the SSD.
>All modern functioning SSDs have them. Total size and granularity of the tables
>are primarily a function of interface block size, SSD size (aka 80GB/160GB), power
>loss to power fault time (aka someone pulled the plug on the server/hit the power switch), etc.
>
>The various schemes used to store the tables vary greatly with controller design.
>Some controllers use small on chip sliding tables and back fill to reserved flash
>storage space. Some use high granularity on chip and query tags in flash for intra-block/page
>information. Others use external SRAM/DRAM/PRAM to enable larger table, faster access, and better granularity.
SRAM/DRAM? Battery backed? I'd be surprised if that was the case, on a commodity SSD.
Anyway, right. So when you say "it's free, it just has to update this table", you mean that an IO has to go down the wire, and the device has to do some processing and potentially some banging on NAND (or PCM or whatever) or even this SRAM, and then send the completion back up.
That's only "free" for some restricted definitions of "free".
>The mapping table scheme and GC schemes largely are the differentials in SSD(flash
>based) performance given that almost everyone is using the same number of channels
>and same speed flash ICs. The highest performing devices (aka enterprise random
>access small block size which is the hardest case) tend to rely on external DRAM,
>512B granularity, and capacitors. It is also possible to go external DRAM, 512B
>granularity and journal/rebuild on power on but much more complicated algorithm wise.
And even on those, TRIM will be a total loss if the filesystem rewrites the same LBA before the old one is garbage collected.
So when you say "pretty obvious", this is also only true for some definitions of obvious.
And that's why doing trim in the filesystem is hard.
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Max | 2011/01/12 02:50 AM |
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Any x86 -> ARM port experience? | Michael S | 2011/01/12 07:52 AM |
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badly written? | Wilco | 2011/01/13 07:09 AM |
badly written? | Megol | 2011/01/14 03:28 AM |
badly written? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:20 AM |
badly written? | mpx | 2011/01/13 09:19 AM |
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unaligned read is fast on Nehalem | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/13 05:50 PM |
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And endianness? | Megol | 2011/01/17 11:09 AM |
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Any x86 -> ARM port experience? | anon | 2011/01/12 10:28 PM |
Any x86 -> ARM port experience? | anon | 2011/01/12 10:52 PM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 03:53 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 04:14 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 04:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 04:36 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 05:17 PM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 05:54 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 05:49 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 06:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 07:20 PM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anonymous | 2011/01/13 06:50 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Michael S | 2011/01/13 07:52 AM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | ? | 2011/01/14 08:48 AM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Max | 2011/01/18 01:34 AM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 11:43 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 01:00 AM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 04:29 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 02:00 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 04:30 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Ricardo B | 2011/01/20 01:36 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Ricardo B | 2011/01/20 06:14 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | MS | 2011/01/21 09:06 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:19 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/21 05:45 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | James | 2011/01/21 07:37 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/21 03:10 PM |
databases and filesystems | Foo_ | 2011/01/21 06:26 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | iz | 2011/01/20 12:45 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 09:54 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | iz | 2011/01/20 11:28 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 10:34 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Doug Siebert | 2011/01/19 11:48 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 11:59 PM |
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TRIM - How about we use LBA and PBA? | anon | 2011/01/20 12:10 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:23 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Anon | 2011/01/19 10:58 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:04 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 11:34 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:59 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 12:18 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 12:54 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 01:12 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:44 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 08:56 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 08:59 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:33 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 04:55 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:14 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 06:14 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:38 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 09:16 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/20 03:58 PM |
Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 04:57 PM |
Supercaps | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:20 PM |
Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 05:43 PM |
Supercaps | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:25 PM |
Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 11:02 PM |
Supercaps | MS | 2011/01/21 01:37 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 09:58 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | ajensen | 2011/01/21 03:23 AM |
Mythical SSDs | Ricardo B | 2011/01/21 06:27 AM |
Mythical SSDs | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 10:24 AM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/21 12:00 PM |
What is off-line? | David Kanter | 2011/01/21 12:09 PM |
What is off-line? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 01:51 PM |
What is off-line? | Octoploid | 2011/01/21 02:04 PM |
Mythical SSDs | ajensen | 2011/01/21 12:28 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/21 12:58 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 01:21 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/21 04:13 PM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/21 07:47 PM |
Mythical SSDs | mpx | 2011/01/22 01:01 AM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/22 02:08 AM |
Mythical Linus | ? | 2011/01/25 07:16 AM |
Mythical Linus | Ungo | 2011/01/25 12:35 PM |
Mythical Linus | Dean Kent | 2011/01/25 01:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | David Kanter | 2011/01/25 01:16 PM |
Filesystem impact | Ungo | 2011/01/25 03:15 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:18 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:25 PM |
Filesystem impact | Foo_ | 2011/01/25 05:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:24 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:27 PM |
Filesystem impact | Robert Myers | 2011/01/26 06:43 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 08:29 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 07:19 PM |
Filesystem impact | Groo | 2011/01/25 07:42 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 10:03 PM |
Filesystem impact | mpx | 2011/01/26 02:15 AM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/26 03:14 AM |
Windows 7 and SSDs: Setup secrets and tune-up tweaks | _Arthur | 2011/01/26 06:59 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/19 09:54 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:43 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 01:01 AM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:25 AM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 04:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Megol | 2011/01/20 03:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 10:05 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/22 01:30 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/22 07:07 PM |
TRIM | David Kanter | 2011/01/24 02:05 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 02:57 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 03:22 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:44 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:51 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 07:29 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 08:40 PM |
TRIM | Ricardo B | 2011/01/25 03:40 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 06:37 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/24 07:45 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/24 07:53 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 09:28 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/25 07:39 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 11:18 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 12:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/25 01:17 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 06:15 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:09 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/26 02:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | anon | 2011/01/26 09:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 02:12 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | iz | 2011/01/26 03:19 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | ? | 2011/01/26 05:04 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | Meeple | 2011/01/26 04:34 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | iz | 2011/01/26 08:01 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 08:40 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 09:09 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 09:40 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 12:03 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/26 12:48 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 01:30 PM |
Relative latency | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 01:09 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 01:34 PM |
NAND flash latencies | slacker | 2011/01/26 07:14 PM |
NAND flash latencies | iz | 2011/01/26 08:18 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | slacker | 2011/01/26 08:58 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 12:58 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | David Kanter | 2011/01/27 01:54 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/27 04:42 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 07:54 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/28 06:02 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | MS | 2011/01/28 03:06 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/28 05:12 PM |
Relative latency | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 03:23 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 04:16 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | James | 2011/01/26 05:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 02:46 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/25 03:10 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Darrell Coker | 2011/01/25 07:36 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 01:52 AM |
EXT4 *not* heavily optimized for rotating media | ? | 2011/01/26 02:34 AM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:00 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/20 11:35 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | anon | 2011/01/20 04:57 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/21 02:27 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 05:18 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:34 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 06:16 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/22 02:10 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 07:12 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:34 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Mark Christiansen | 2011/01/22 12:07 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/22 06:43 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/22 09:12 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/23 02:01 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 05:20 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | mpx | 2011/01/23 12:00 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 06:10 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/20 02:19 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | iz | 2011/01/20 07:05 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/21 03:29 AM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | anon | 2011/01/21 07:51 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:42 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | MS | 2011/01/21 06:07 PM |
Quad pixel? | Anon | 2011/01/19 10:48 PM |
Quad pixel? | mpx | 2011/01/20 08:40 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/19 01:57 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/19 03:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 08:30 PM |
Apollo Computer | Brett | 2011/01/19 09:52 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | David Kanter | 2011/02/02 11:12 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 01:30 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Mark Roulo | 2011/02/02 02:25 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 02:59 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Richard Cownie | 2011/02/03 10:30 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Anon | 2011/02/02 04:08 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Rob Thorpe | 2011/02/03 11:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Ungo | 2011/01/19 05:54 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 01:32 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/17 04:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:03 PM |
Intel GMs for low-end | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:05 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | a reader | 2011/01/14 07:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Foo_ | 2011/01/15 03:12 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/15 12:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | IntelUser2000 | 2011/01/16 05:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/16 06:02 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Megol | 2011/01/17 10:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 04:58 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/17 06:12 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 08:06 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/18 10:13 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/18 03:23 PM |
Nice post | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:38 AM |
New MacBook Pros are getting closer | Matt Sayler | 2011/02/24 09:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | ? | 2011/01/16 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/16 10:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/17 12:43 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Robert Myers | 2011/01/14 06:29 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Max | 2011/01/15 07:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 04:59 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 05:40 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 09:14 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/13 02:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/13 05:19 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/14 03:50 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:00 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 07:26 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 08:02 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 10:06 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | someone | 2011/01/14 11:20 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/14 12:22 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 06:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/15 06:07 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Jukka Larja | 2011/01/16 01:44 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 05:08 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/15 09:20 AM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | Kevin G | 2011/01/14 05:21 PM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | someone | 2011/01/15 10:48 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | mpx | 2011/01/15 12:51 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | Exophase | 2011/01/18 06:39 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | anon | 2011/01/19 05:42 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | Exophase | 2011/01/19 06:20 PM |
doomed ARM sells 6B cores/year | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/19 10:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 10:30 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:05 AM |
Not a chance in hell | Rohit | 2011/01/12 07:49 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | notsure | 2011/01/12 12:39 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:27 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/13 11:50 AM |
Internet + web apps + multimedia = enabler | mpx | 2011/01/14 02:11 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | Will Smith | 2011/01/14 09:48 AM |
Notebook vendors show no interest in Oak Trail | Nicki Minaj | 2011/01/16 06:37 PM |