By: Aaron Spink (aaronspink.delete@this.notearthlink.net), January 20, 2011 12:54 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
anon (anon@anon.com) on 1/20/11 wrote:
---------------------------
>SRAM/DRAM? Battery backed? I'd be surprised if that was the case, on a commodity SSD.
>
Almost all the SSD controllers on the market utilize off chip DRAM for tables (and some even for caching data). The only exception I know of is the sandforce controller but it tends to have bad performance when it has to use RT GC precisely because it is a sliding window/table small onchip map. We are talking about the full on consumer drives. Almost all of them utilize a single DRAM chip primarily to store mapping tables. The DRAM chips used vary in size from 32MB to 256MB. Just look at board photos for any of the Marvell/Indilix/Jmicron/Intel based SSDs which I'm sure you would agree fit into the commodity SSD range (since with the Sandforce controller, they are the only controllers used).
Several of the drives utilize capacitors as well. And certainly all the enterprise drives do. Not battery backed, but capacitive power in case of a power loss to write the mapping tables. There are only two other options: don't worry about power loss or do full device scan to rebuild tables on power on.
>Anyway, right. So when you say "it's free, it just has to update this table", you
>mean that an IO has to go down the wire, and the device has to do some processing
>and potentially some banging on NAND (or PCM or whatever) or even this SRAM, and then send the completion back up.
>
>That's only "free" for some restricted definitions of "free".
>
Its on the order of hundreds of nS and device latencies are on the order of hundreds of uS. I consider < 0.1% to be free.
>And even on those, TRIM will be a total loss if the filesystem rewrites the same
>LBA before the old one is garbage collected.
>
No, not a total loss. For a write to an unmapped LBA, you don't have to do a map and mark to free/dirty. So it saves there. If you are doing block erase and write, it shouldn't have any effect and if you are doing random IO, the device should have plenty of free time.
In a properly implemented SSD, the overhead for doing a TRIM really is minimal. And the occupancy/latency on the SATA/SAS interface should also be in the noise.
---------------------------
>SRAM/DRAM? Battery backed? I'd be surprised if that was the case, on a commodity SSD.
>
Almost all the SSD controllers on the market utilize off chip DRAM for tables (and some even for caching data). The only exception I know of is the sandforce controller but it tends to have bad performance when it has to use RT GC precisely because it is a sliding window/table small onchip map. We are talking about the full on consumer drives. Almost all of them utilize a single DRAM chip primarily to store mapping tables. The DRAM chips used vary in size from 32MB to 256MB. Just look at board photos for any of the Marvell/Indilix/Jmicron/Intel based SSDs which I'm sure you would agree fit into the commodity SSD range (since with the Sandforce controller, they are the only controllers used).
Several of the drives utilize capacitors as well. And certainly all the enterprise drives do. Not battery backed, but capacitive power in case of a power loss to write the mapping tables. There are only two other options: don't worry about power loss or do full device scan to rebuild tables on power on.
>Anyway, right. So when you say "it's free, it just has to update this table", you
>mean that an IO has to go down the wire, and the device has to do some processing
>and potentially some banging on NAND (or PCM or whatever) or even this SRAM, and then send the completion back up.
>
>That's only "free" for some restricted definitions of "free".
>
Its on the order of hundreds of nS and device latencies are on the order of hundreds of uS. I consider < 0.1% to be free.
>And even on those, TRIM will be a total loss if the filesystem rewrites the same
>LBA before the old one is garbage collected.
>
No, not a total loss. For a write to an unmapped LBA, you don't have to do a map and mark to free/dirty. So it saves there. If you are doing block erase and write, it shouldn't have any effect and if you are doing random IO, the device should have plenty of free time.
In a properly implemented SSD, the overhead for doing a TRIM really is minimal. And the occupancy/latency on the SATA/SAS interface should also be in the noise.
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 03:53 PM |
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The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Michael S | 2011/01/13 07:52 AM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Ricardo B | 2011/01/20 06:14 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/21 05:45 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | James | 2011/01/21 07:37 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/21 03:10 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | iz | 2011/01/20 12:45 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 09:54 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | iz | 2011/01/20 11:28 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 10:34 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Anon | 2011/01/19 10:58 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:04 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/19 11:34 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 12:18 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 12:54 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 01:12 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:44 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 08:56 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 08:59 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:33 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 04:55 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:14 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 06:14 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:38 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/20 09:16 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | mpx | 2011/01/20 03:58 PM |
Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 04:57 PM |
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Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 05:43 PM |
Supercaps | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:25 PM |
Supercaps | slacker | 2011/01/20 11:02 PM |
Supercaps | MS | 2011/01/21 01:37 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 09:58 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | ajensen | 2011/01/21 03:23 AM |
Mythical SSDs | Ricardo B | 2011/01/21 06:27 AM |
Mythical SSDs | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 10:24 AM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/21 12:00 PM |
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What is off-line? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 01:51 PM |
What is off-line? | Octoploid | 2011/01/21 02:04 PM |
Mythical SSDs | ajensen | 2011/01/21 12:28 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/21 12:58 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/21 01:21 PM |
Mythical SSDs | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/21 04:13 PM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/21 07:47 PM |
Mythical SSDs | mpx | 2011/01/22 01:01 AM |
Mythical SSDs | anon | 2011/01/22 02:08 AM |
Mythical Linus | ? | 2011/01/25 07:16 AM |
Mythical Linus | Ungo | 2011/01/25 12:35 PM |
Mythical Linus | Dean Kent | 2011/01/25 01:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | David Kanter | 2011/01/25 01:16 PM |
Filesystem impact | Ungo | 2011/01/25 03:15 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:18 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:25 PM |
Filesystem impact | Foo_ | 2011/01/25 05:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:24 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:27 PM |
Filesystem impact | Robert Myers | 2011/01/26 06:43 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 08:29 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 07:19 PM |
Filesystem impact | Groo | 2011/01/25 07:42 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 10:03 PM |
Filesystem impact | mpx | 2011/01/26 02:15 AM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/26 03:14 AM |
Windows 7 and SSDs: Setup secrets and tune-up tweaks | _Arthur | 2011/01/26 06:59 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/19 09:54 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:43 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 01:01 AM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:25 AM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 04:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Megol | 2011/01/20 03:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 10:05 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/22 01:30 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/22 07:07 PM |
TRIM | David Kanter | 2011/01/24 02:05 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 02:57 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 03:22 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:44 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:51 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 07:29 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 08:40 PM |
TRIM | Ricardo B | 2011/01/25 03:40 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 06:37 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/24 07:45 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/24 07:53 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 09:28 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/25 07:39 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 11:18 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 12:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/25 01:17 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 06:15 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:09 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/26 02:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | anon | 2011/01/26 09:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 02:12 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | iz | 2011/01/26 03:19 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | ? | 2011/01/26 05:04 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | Meeple | 2011/01/26 04:34 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | iz | 2011/01/26 08:01 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 08:40 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 09:09 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 09:40 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 12:03 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/26 12:48 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 01:30 PM |
Relative latency | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 01:09 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 01:34 PM |
NAND flash latencies | slacker | 2011/01/26 07:14 PM |
NAND flash latencies | iz | 2011/01/26 08:18 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | slacker | 2011/01/26 08:58 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 12:58 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | David Kanter | 2011/01/27 01:54 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/27 04:42 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 07:54 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/28 06:02 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | MS | 2011/01/28 03:06 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/28 05:12 PM |
Relative latency | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 03:23 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 04:16 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | James | 2011/01/26 05:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 02:46 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/25 03:10 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Darrell Coker | 2011/01/25 07:36 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 01:52 AM |
EXT4 *not* heavily optimized for rotating media | ? | 2011/01/26 02:34 AM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:00 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/20 11:35 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | anon | 2011/01/20 04:57 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/21 02:27 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 05:18 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:34 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 06:16 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/22 02:10 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 07:12 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:34 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Mark Christiansen | 2011/01/22 12:07 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/22 06:43 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/22 09:12 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/23 02:01 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 05:20 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | mpx | 2011/01/23 12:00 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 06:10 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/20 02:19 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | iz | 2011/01/20 07:05 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/21 03:29 AM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | anon | 2011/01/21 07:51 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:42 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | MS | 2011/01/21 06:07 PM |
Quad pixel? | Anon | 2011/01/19 10:48 PM |
Quad pixel? | mpx | 2011/01/20 08:40 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/19 01:57 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/19 03:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 08:30 PM |
Apollo Computer | Brett | 2011/01/19 09:52 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | David Kanter | 2011/02/02 11:12 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 01:30 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Mark Roulo | 2011/02/02 02:25 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 02:59 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Richard Cownie | 2011/02/03 10:30 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Anon | 2011/02/02 04:08 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Rob Thorpe | 2011/02/03 11:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Ungo | 2011/01/19 05:54 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 01:32 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/17 04:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:03 PM |
Intel GMs for low-end | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:05 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | a reader | 2011/01/14 07:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Foo_ | 2011/01/15 03:12 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/15 12:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | IntelUser2000 | 2011/01/16 05:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/16 06:02 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Megol | 2011/01/17 10:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 04:58 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/17 06:12 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 08:06 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/18 10:13 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/18 03:23 PM |
Nice post | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:38 AM |
New MacBook Pros are getting closer | Matt Sayler | 2011/02/24 09:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | ? | 2011/01/16 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/16 10:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/17 12:43 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Robert Myers | 2011/01/14 06:29 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Max | 2011/01/15 07:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 04:59 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 05:40 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 09:14 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/13 02:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/13 05:19 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/14 03:50 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:00 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 07:26 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 08:02 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 10:06 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | someone | 2011/01/14 11:20 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/14 12:22 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 06:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/15 06:07 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Jukka Larja | 2011/01/16 01:44 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 05:08 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/15 09:20 AM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | Kevin G | 2011/01/14 05:21 PM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | someone | 2011/01/15 10:48 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | mpx | 2011/01/15 12:51 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | Exophase | 2011/01/18 06:39 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | anon | 2011/01/19 05:42 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | Exophase | 2011/01/19 06:20 PM |
doomed ARM sells 6B cores/year | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/19 10:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 10:30 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:05 AM |
Not a chance in hell | Rohit | 2011/01/12 07:49 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | notsure | 2011/01/12 12:39 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:27 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/13 11:50 AM |
Internet + web apps + multimedia = enabler | mpx | 2011/01/14 02:11 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | Will Smith | 2011/01/14 09:48 AM |
Notebook vendors show no interest in Oak Trail | Nicki Minaj | 2011/01/16 06:37 PM |