By: iz (i.delete@this.z.x), January 23, 2011 5:20 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 1/22/11 wrote:
---------------------------
>iz (i@z.x) on 1/22/11 wrote:
>>
>>If space is more important than performance, use a low reserve percentage (the
>>standard 7% from power-of-two to HD power of 10 trick + round down to nearest ten
>>GB: e.g. 128GB real -> 120GB marketing is IMHO the minimum).
>
>Hmm. Intel seems to be doing on with just the 7% difference
>between GB and GiB. Afaik, those 160GB drives are 160GiB,
>there's no extra rounding down.
That is because if you don't write a lot fast enough to the
disk, it has enough time to do the GC in the background.
Which is as it should be, and not a big problem because the
max write speed is way faster than what the disk can handle
endurance wise.
Another factor is that the max slow down factor of
100/7 = 14 is the worst case, and there are always blocks
that are less fragmented than that. So usually little or
not GC needs to happen to get a free block. How much the
average block free percentage is depends on the workload,
but should be much higher than the worst case 7%.
The hidden cost is of course less endurance and extra
power usage because more writes are done and the effective
write amplification is higher.
>But I have this dim memory of (I think) Hitachi selling an
>"enterprise" version of the Intel SSD where the difference
>was literally just the extra reserve space for added
>performance and lifetime.
>
>But maybe it's my meds talking.
Any idea what their reserve ratio is for their enterprise
disks? Or is SLC the only difference?
>
>>NAND flash chips more or less come in multiples of 8GB, so
>>you can usually guess what reserve ratio a disk has. If it's sold as a "256GB"
>>disk I wouldn't buy it because performance is clearly not a priority. It should be sold as 250 at most.
>
>I suspect how much reserve space is more an issue of how
>good your GC/writeleveling algorithm is.
It primarily depends on the IO pattern.
The max fragmentation slowdown is defined by the reserve ratio only.
The extra slowdown of doing suboptimal GC/wearleveling is
a constant factor (or it's so crap it collapes badly when
it can't easily find easy to reclaim blocks).
FTL crappiness can be partly hidden with higher reserve ratios. But then they want you to really use TRIM as well.
Example for a disk with 7% reserve and 200MB/s max write
throughput. Min write speed will be 200/(100/7) = 14 MB/s.
If the disk had 14% reserve it would be 28 MB/s. So the
worst case speed is twice as high for only 7% extra reserve.
It's hard to tell how much it will be in practise, but 25%
to 50% seem likely.
> And how aggressive you are.
Having lots of erased blocks ready to use speeds up write
bursts, but the more you pre-erase, the more unnecessary GC
is done. This is a lot easier for bigger disks because
they can afford to pre-erase more without worrying about destroying GC efficiency.
> The 7% thing seems to work for Intel, but they
>have slower top write throughput than some of the new
>controllers. The two may be related.
Probably, but the newer disks may also use newer, faster
flash.
---------------------------
>iz (i@z.x) on 1/22/11 wrote:
>>
>>If space is more important than performance, use a low reserve percentage (the
>>standard 7% from power-of-two to HD power of 10 trick + round down to nearest ten
>>GB: e.g. 128GB real -> 120GB marketing is IMHO the minimum).
>
>Hmm. Intel seems to be doing on with just the 7% difference
>between GB and GiB. Afaik, those 160GB drives are 160GiB,
>there's no extra rounding down.
That is because if you don't write a lot fast enough to the
disk, it has enough time to do the GC in the background.
Which is as it should be, and not a big problem because the
max write speed is way faster than what the disk can handle
endurance wise.
Another factor is that the max slow down factor of
100/7 = 14 is the worst case, and there are always blocks
that are less fragmented than that. So usually little or
not GC needs to happen to get a free block. How much the
average block free percentage is depends on the workload,
but should be much higher than the worst case 7%.
The hidden cost is of course less endurance and extra
power usage because more writes are done and the effective
write amplification is higher.
>But I have this dim memory of (I think) Hitachi selling an
>"enterprise" version of the Intel SSD where the difference
>was literally just the extra reserve space for added
>performance and lifetime.
>
>But maybe it's my meds talking.
Any idea what their reserve ratio is for their enterprise
disks? Or is SLC the only difference?
>
>>NAND flash chips more or less come in multiples of 8GB, so
>>you can usually guess what reserve ratio a disk has. If it's sold as a "256GB"
>>disk I wouldn't buy it because performance is clearly not a priority. It should be sold as 250 at most.
>
>I suspect how much reserve space is more an issue of how
>good your GC/writeleveling algorithm is.
It primarily depends on the IO pattern.
The max fragmentation slowdown is defined by the reserve ratio only.
The extra slowdown of doing suboptimal GC/wearleveling is
a constant factor (or it's so crap it collapes badly when
it can't easily find easy to reclaim blocks).
FTL crappiness can be partly hidden with higher reserve ratios. But then they want you to really use TRIM as well.
Example for a disk with 7% reserve and 200MB/s max write
throughput. Min write speed will be 200/(100/7) = 14 MB/s.
If the disk had 14% reserve it would be 28 MB/s. So the
worst case speed is twice as high for only 7% extra reserve.
It's hard to tell how much it will be in practise, but 25%
to 50% seem likely.
> And how aggressive you are.
Having lots of erased blocks ready to use speeds up write
bursts, but the more you pre-erase, the more unnecessary GC
is done. This is a lot easier for bigger disks because
they can afford to pre-erase more without worrying about destroying GC efficiency.
> The 7% thing seems to work for Intel, but they
>have slower top write throughput than some of the new
>controllers. The two may be related.
Probably, but the newer disks may also use newer, faster
flash.
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | iz | 2011/01/20 11:28 PM |
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TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | ajensen | 2011/01/21 03:23 AM |
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Mythical Linus | ? | 2011/01/25 07:16 AM |
Mythical Linus | Ungo | 2011/01/25 12:35 PM |
Mythical Linus | Dean Kent | 2011/01/25 01:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | David Kanter | 2011/01/25 01:16 PM |
Filesystem impact | Ungo | 2011/01/25 03:15 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:18 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:25 PM |
Filesystem impact | Foo_ | 2011/01/25 05:14 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 05:24 PM |
Filesystem impact | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/26 01:27 PM |
Filesystem impact | Robert Myers | 2011/01/26 06:43 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 08:29 PM |
Filesystem impact | anon | 2011/01/26 07:19 PM |
Filesystem impact | Groo | 2011/01/25 07:42 PM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/25 10:03 PM |
Filesystem impact | mpx | 2011/01/26 02:15 AM |
Filesystem impact | iz | 2011/01/26 03:14 AM |
Windows 7 and SSDs: Setup secrets and tune-up tweaks | _Arthur | 2011/01/26 06:59 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/19 09:54 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 11:43 PM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 01:01 AM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 01:25 AM |
TRIM | iz | 2011/01/20 04:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Megol | 2011/01/20 03:29 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 10:05 AM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/22 01:30 PM |
TRIM (was Quad pixel?) | anon | 2011/01/22 07:07 PM |
TRIM | David Kanter | 2011/01/24 02:05 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 02:57 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 03:22 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:44 PM |
TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/24 06:51 PM |
TRIM | anon | 2011/01/24 07:29 PM |
TRIM | MS | 2011/01/24 08:40 PM |
TRIM | Ricardo B | 2011/01/25 03:40 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 06:37 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/24 07:45 PM |
TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/24 07:53 PM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/24 09:28 PM |
TRIM | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/25 07:39 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 11:18 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 12:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/25 01:17 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Max | 2011/01/25 06:15 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:09 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/26 02:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | anon | 2011/01/26 09:30 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 02:12 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | iz | 2011/01/26 03:19 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | ? | 2011/01/26 05:04 AM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | Meeple | 2011/01/26 04:34 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | iz | 2011/01/26 08:01 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 08:40 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 09:09 PM |
Linus is wrong - TRIM is *essential* | anon | 2011/01/26 09:40 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 12:03 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | Michael S | 2011/01/26 12:48 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/26 01:30 PM |
Relative latency | David Kanter | 2011/01/26 01:09 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 01:34 PM |
NAND flash latencies | slacker | 2011/01/26 07:14 PM |
NAND flash latencies | iz | 2011/01/26 08:18 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | slacker | 2011/01/26 08:58 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 12:58 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | David Kanter | 2011/01/27 01:54 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/27 04:42 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/27 07:54 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | Ricardo B | 2011/01/28 06:02 AM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | MS | 2011/01/28 03:06 PM |
NAND flash latencies -- Correction | iz | 2011/01/28 05:12 PM |
Relative latency | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 03:23 PM |
Relative latency | MS | 2011/01/26 04:16 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | James | 2011/01/26 05:26 AM |
TRIM Linus is right | gallier2 | 2011/01/25 02:46 PM |
TRIM Linus is right | MS | 2011/01/25 03:10 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Darrell Coker | 2011/01/25 07:36 PM |
Linus is HALF right | Ricardo B | 2011/01/26 01:52 AM |
EXT4 *not* heavily optimized for rotating media | ? | 2011/01/26 02:34 AM |
TRIM | Anon | 2011/01/25 09:00 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/20 11:35 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | anon | 2011/01/20 04:57 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Max | 2011/01/21 02:27 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 05:18 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 05:34 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/20 06:16 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/22 02:10 AM |
The alternative to TRIM | Dan Downs | 2011/01/20 07:12 PM |
The alternative to TRIM | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:34 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Mark Christiansen | 2011/01/22 12:07 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/22 06:43 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/22 09:12 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/23 02:01 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 05:20 AM |
Another Alternative to Trim | mpx | 2011/01/23 12:00 PM |
Another Alternative to Trim | iz | 2011/01/23 06:10 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/20 02:19 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | iz | 2011/01/20 07:05 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | mpx | 2011/01/21 03:29 AM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | anon | 2011/01/21 07:51 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/20 08:42 PM |
TRIM vs. GC for SSD Longevity | MS | 2011/01/21 06:07 PM |
Quad pixel? | Anon | 2011/01/19 10:48 PM |
Quad pixel? | mpx | 2011/01/20 08:40 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/19 01:57 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/19 03:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/19 08:30 PM |
Apollo Computer | Brett | 2011/01/19 09:52 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | David Kanter | 2011/02/02 11:12 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 01:30 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Mark Roulo | 2011/02/02 02:25 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Brett | 2011/02/02 02:59 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Richard Cownie | 2011/02/03 10:30 AM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Anon | 2011/02/02 04:08 PM |
iPad 2 display same as iPad | Rob Thorpe | 2011/02/03 11:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Ungo | 2011/01/19 05:54 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 01:32 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/17 04:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:03 PM |
Intel GMs for low-end | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:05 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | a reader | 2011/01/14 07:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Foo_ | 2011/01/15 03:12 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/15 12:25 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | IntelUser2000 | 2011/01/16 05:20 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Matt Sayler | 2011/01/16 06:02 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Megol | 2011/01/17 10:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 04:58 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/17 06:12 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Brett | 2011/01/17 08:06 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Louis Gerbarg | 2011/01/18 10:13 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Rob Thorpe | 2011/01/18 03:23 PM |
Nice post | David Kanter | 2011/01/18 11:38 AM |
New MacBook Pros are getting closer | Matt Sayler | 2011/02/24 09:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | ? | 2011/01/16 09:29 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/16 10:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Gabriele Svelto | 2011/01/17 12:43 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Robert Myers | 2011/01/14 06:29 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Max | 2011/01/15 07:18 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 04:59 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/12 05:40 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Groo | 2011/01/12 09:14 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/13 02:35 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/13 05:19 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Adrian | 2011/01/14 03:50 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:00 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 07:26 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Wilco | 2011/01/14 07:46 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | none | 2011/01/14 08:02 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Linus Torvalds | 2011/01/14 09:42 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 10:06 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | someone | 2011/01/14 11:20 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/14 12:22 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/14 06:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Aaron Spink | 2011/01/15 06:07 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | slacker | 2011/01/15 04:08 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Jukka Larja | 2011/01/16 01:44 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/15 05:08 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | Paul | 2011/01/15 09:20 AM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | Kevin G | 2011/01/14 05:21 PM |
The ARM story: 64 bit or bust? | someone | 2011/01/15 10:48 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | mpx | 2011/01/15 12:51 AM |
Bye, bye native binary | Exophase | 2011/01/18 06:39 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | anon | 2011/01/19 05:42 PM |
RISC with 16 GPRs!? | Exophase | 2011/01/19 06:20 PM |
doomed ARM sells 6B cores/year | Richard Cownie | 2011/01/19 10:01 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | anon | 2011/01/12 10:30 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:05 AM |
Not a chance in hell | Rohit | 2011/01/12 07:49 AM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | notsure | 2011/01/12 12:39 PM |
The ARM story: Earthquake looming? | mpx | 2011/01/13 04:27 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | fastpathguru | 2011/01/13 11:50 AM |
Internet + web apps + multimedia = enabler | mpx | 2011/01/14 02:11 AM |
The _Android_ story: Earthquake looming? | Will Smith | 2011/01/14 09:48 AM |
Notebook vendors show no interest in Oak Trail | Nicki Minaj | 2011/01/16 06:37 PM |