By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), April 30, 2012 8:59 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
hcl64 (mario.smarq@gmail.com) on 4/30/12 wrote:
---------------------------
>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 4/30/12 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>First of all, I'd like to ask you to refrain from turning our forums into a giant
>>bill board for EETimes. If you want to build link farms, do it somewhere else.
>>
>
>Sorry Mr. Kanter, i know i've been your guest and i must >respect the host, no matter how different the opinions can >be.
>Well... it has been an habit to provide info from disparate sources, sources can
>be wrong or less correct of course, marketing is pervasive, >so let see who is more
>correct or more wrong... what players are more inclined to >spin or to facts...
>So at least i think those links can yet provide an >excellent service to the inquiring
>mind critically seeking the truth.
That's fine and I applaud finding independent information. If you look at your post...it contains 14 links. I absolutely respect the effort that you took in putting it together.
However, there is a fine line between providing supporting evidence and arguments and inundating our forum with outgoing links.
I'd also point out that many of your links don't exactly support your point.
For example, STMicro has committed to using FD-SOI for their products going forward. However, they are not shipping any chips manufactured using FD-SOI. As I mentioned, Intel is shipping millions of IVB using FinFETs.
I'd also encourage you to avoid taking anything from SOITEC at face value. As an organization, they do some very interesting science and engineering work. However, they are very aggressive about marketing. PD-SOI was supposed to the best thing ever, and pretty much nobody used it, so they don't exactly have a reputation for producing technology that is widely adopted.
Those studies that purport to show that FD-SOI is less expensive were bought and paid for by SOITEC and are unlikely to be fully accurate. Some of the assumptions seem rather unrealistic, particularly because the results are so dramatically different from empirical observations.
I don't believe for a minute that FD-SOI is less expensive than FinFETs, otherwise TSMC would have chosen that option.
Also, many of the claims about FD-SOI assume that customers will use body biasing techniques to further enhance power/performance. Body bias adds cost to chips, because it requires additional voltage rails to apply the bias and it also adds complexity to the chip by distributing more power rails throughout the design.
I know that TI and Samsung are using body bias, and STMicro clearly intends to do so. However, high performance products generally don't. Body bias isn't used by Intel, AMD, IBM, Oracle or Nvidia for CPUs/GPUs. I don't believe it is used by Qualcomm either.
If you look at the facts, it seems pretty clear that for companies with high volume such as TSMC and Intel, FinFETs are a much better choice. There is a higher investment in NRE to get them right, but the variable cost is lower.
For companies like IBM and STMicro, where the volumes aren't quite as high as TSMC or Intel, FD-SOI may be a very logical choice. But even IBM is looking at FinFETs...
David
---------------------------
>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 4/30/12 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>First of all, I'd like to ask you to refrain from turning our forums into a giant
>>bill board for EETimes. If you want to build link farms, do it somewhere else.
>>
>
>Sorry Mr. Kanter, i know i've been your guest and i must >respect the host, no matter how different the opinions can >be.
>Well... it has been an habit to provide info from disparate sources, sources can
>be wrong or less correct of course, marketing is pervasive, >so let see who is more
>correct or more wrong... what players are more inclined to >spin or to facts...
>So at least i think those links can yet provide an >excellent service to the inquiring
>mind critically seeking the truth.
That's fine and I applaud finding independent information. If you look at your post...it contains 14 links. I absolutely respect the effort that you took in putting it together.
However, there is a fine line between providing supporting evidence and arguments and inundating our forum with outgoing links.
I'd also point out that many of your links don't exactly support your point.
For example, STMicro has committed to using FD-SOI for their products going forward. However, they are not shipping any chips manufactured using FD-SOI. As I mentioned, Intel is shipping millions of IVB using FinFETs.
I'd also encourage you to avoid taking anything from SOITEC at face value. As an organization, they do some very interesting science and engineering work. However, they are very aggressive about marketing. PD-SOI was supposed to the best thing ever, and pretty much nobody used it, so they don't exactly have a reputation for producing technology that is widely adopted.
Those studies that purport to show that FD-SOI is less expensive were bought and paid for by SOITEC and are unlikely to be fully accurate. Some of the assumptions seem rather unrealistic, particularly because the results are so dramatically different from empirical observations.
I don't believe for a minute that FD-SOI is less expensive than FinFETs, otherwise TSMC would have chosen that option.
Also, many of the claims about FD-SOI assume that customers will use body biasing techniques to further enhance power/performance. Body bias adds cost to chips, because it requires additional voltage rails to apply the bias and it also adds complexity to the chip by distributing more power rails throughout the design.
I know that TI and Samsung are using body bias, and STMicro clearly intends to do so. However, high performance products generally don't. Body bias isn't used by Intel, AMD, IBM, Oracle or Nvidia for CPUs/GPUs. I don't believe it is used by Qualcomm either.
If you look at the facts, it seems pretty clear that for companies with high volume such as TSMC and Intel, FinFETs are a much better choice. There is a higher investment in NRE to get them right, but the variable cost is lower.
For companies like IBM and STMicro, where the volumes aren't quite as high as TSMC or Intel, FD-SOI may be a very logical choice. But even IBM is looking at FinFETs...
David
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
Phoronix tests GCC compiler flags and Bulldozer. | I.S.T. | 2012/04/19 02:05 AM |
Single page view? | David Kanter | 2012/04/19 07:59 AM |
Single page view? | wainwright | 2012/04/19 08:22 AM |
Single page view? | slothrop | 2012/04/19 08:23 AM |
Single page view? | David Kanter | 2012/04/19 08:31 AM |
Single page view? | EduardoS | 2012/04/19 02:12 PM |
Is there a single page view option for RWT articles? | anon | 2012/04/19 08:27 AM |
Single page view? | Del | 2012/04/19 08:36 AM |
Single page view? | slacker | 2012/04/19 02:56 PM |
Single page view? | Del | 2012/04/22 05:09 AM |
Single page view? | David Kanter | 2012/04/22 08:38 AM |
Single page view? | Del | 2012/04/23 12:22 AM |
Single page view? | Michael S | 2012/04/19 12:30 PM |
Single page view? | Ungo | 2012/04/19 01:25 PM |
Single page view? | Foo_ | 2012/04/19 11:17 PM |
Single page view? | James | 2012/04/20 03:01 AM |
There are ads on the web? | JJB | 2012/04/20 03:32 AM |
What a bunch of freeloaders (NT) | slacker | 2012/04/20 12:44 PM |
So are you, probably | iz | 2012/04/21 03:41 AM |
Impression ad revenue | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/04/21 05:44 AM |
So are you, probably | slacker | 2012/04/21 12:09 PM |
So are you, probably | David Kanter | 2012/04/22 08:41 AM |
So are you, probably | iz | 2012/04/22 02:57 PM |
So are you, probably | Doug Siebert | 2012/04/22 11:37 AM |
Aha! | David Kanter | 2012/04/22 02:45 PM |
Aha! | bakaneko | 2012/04/22 07:49 PM |
So are you, probably | iz | 2012/04/22 02:48 PM |
That's not how the business works... | David Kanter | 2012/04/22 04:31 PM |
That's not how the business works... | iz | 2012/04/23 12:49 AM |
So are you, probably | slacker | 2012/04/22 10:31 PM |
back to phoronix | Michael S | 2012/04/23 01:07 AM |
So are you, probably | iz | 2012/04/23 02:29 AM |
Membership at RWT | David Kanter | 2012/04/23 10:24 AM |
So are you, probably | Jukka Larja | 2012/04/27 07:59 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | I.S.T. | 2012/04/19 06:34 PM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/20 07:34 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Kira | 2012/04/20 08:18 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/20 09:05 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Doug Siebert | 2012/04/20 08:00 PM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Megol | 2012/04/21 08:05 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/21 12:11 PM |
Most problems are fixed... | Megol | 2012/04/24 06:00 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | bakaneko | 2012/04/20 10:16 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | bakaneko | 2012/04/20 10:37 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/20 12:24 PM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Joel | 2012/04/20 01:59 PM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Kira | 2012/04/20 02:32 PM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | EduardoS | 2012/04/20 03:00 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | Joel | 2012/04/20 03:54 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | David Kanter | 2012/04/20 04:32 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Exophase | 2012/04/20 06:11 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | EduardoS | 2012/04/20 06:46 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Exophase | 2012/04/20 07:18 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | anonymous | 2012/04/20 10:26 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | JJB | 2012/04/20 10:34 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | imaxx | 2012/04/21 06:21 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Michael S | 2012/04/21 09:42 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | David Kanter | 2012/04/25 03:29 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/26 11:17 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | anonymous | 2012/04/26 02:15 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | EduardoS | 2012/04/26 02:40 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Foo_ | 2012/04/27 07:21 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Megol | 2012/04/27 12:38 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | EduardoS | 2012/04/26 02:47 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/26 04:02 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | EduardoS | 2012/04/26 05:03 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/26 05:24 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | EduardoS | 2012/04/26 06:18 PM |
Bulldozer's cache memory performance | Heikki Kultala | 2012/04/28 12:18 AM |
Bulldozer's cache memory performance | EduardoS | 2012/04/28 09:06 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | David Kanter | 2012/04/26 03:03 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/26 03:59 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | David Kanter | 2012/04/26 09:53 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/27 07:42 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | David Kanter | 2012/04/27 10:06 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | EduardoS | 2012/04/27 12:27 PM |
K8 divided pipelines? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/04/27 12:59 PM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Michael S | 2012/04/27 03:37 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | Exophase | 2012/04/27 07:33 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | anonymous | 2012/04/27 08:03 AM |
Renaming Flags | Konrad Schwarz | 2012/04/27 02:04 AM |
Renaming Flags | none | 2012/04/27 03:03 AM |
Renaming Flags | Megol | 2012/04/27 11:42 AM |
Bulldozer's integer execution units | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 03:31 PM |
VEX supports 3+ operands. FPU have renaming already(NT) | Megol | 2012/04/28 07:20 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/21 11:26 AM |
Thanks for the lesson | JJB | 2012/04/21 01:23 PM |
Side note.. | Linus Torvalds | 2012/04/21 01:57 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Exophase | 2012/04/21 11:13 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | EduardoS | 2012/04/21 11:53 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | Gionatan Danti | 2012/04/21 11:42 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 04:07 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | David Kanter | 2012/04/28 05:29 AM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 01:44 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | David Kanter | 2012/04/28 08:42 PM |
In defense of Bulldozer's Oddities | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 09:39 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/20 05:05 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/20 07:32 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/21 11:37 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/21 09:16 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/21 09:43 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/22 01:09 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/22 12:57 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/22 03:17 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/22 04:05 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/22 04:42 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/22 05:01 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/22 09:28 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | anon | 2012/04/22 10:05 PM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | a reader | 2012/04/21 09:01 AM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | Kira | 2012/04/21 10:29 AM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 04:58 PM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | anon | 2012/04/27 05:16 PM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 06:33 PM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | rwessel | 2012/04/27 10:12 PM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | EduardoS | 2012/04/28 08:29 AM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | EduardoS | 2012/04/28 08:30 AM |
Bulldozer's isn't bad. | Michael S | 2012/04/28 11:36 AM |
Bulldozer is made for SPEC fp | Pelle-48 | 2012/04/21 10:41 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | mpx | 2012/04/22 02:47 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/22 12:57 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | mpx | 2012/04/23 06:04 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | Eric | 2012/04/23 11:33 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/23 01:22 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | Eric | 2012/04/23 06:30 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 05:16 PM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | Y | 2012/04/25 03:34 AM |
Bulldozer's IDIV | Heikki Kultala | 2012/04/27 09:56 PM |
Bulldozer's IDIV | Y | 2012/04/30 12:51 AM |
Bulldozer's IDIV | EduardoS | 2012/04/30 04:39 AM |
Bulldozer's IDIV | P3Dnow | 2012/05/08 12:23 AM |
Bulldozer's IDIV | Exophase | 2012/05/08 06:37 AM |
Bulldozer's Oddities. | EduardoS | 2012/04/23 01:15 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/04/20 03:10 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/27 11:56 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | anonymous | 2012/04/28 12:43 AM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 01:59 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | anonymous | 2012/04/28 07:45 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | anon | 2012/04/28 01:13 AM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 02:23 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | anon | 2012/04/28 05:19 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 06:58 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | David Kanter | 2012/04/28 05:38 AM |
Guessed meaning of "strong dependency model" | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/04/28 06:24 AM |
Guessed meaning of "strong dependency model" | EduardoS | 2012/04/28 08:46 AM |
*Right meaning* about "strong dependency model" | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 03:59 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 03:24 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | anonymous | 2012/04/28 07:50 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 08:47 PM |
SNB width | David Kanter | 2012/04/28 08:48 PM |
SNB width | hcl64 | 2012/04/29 01:24 AM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | David Kanter | 2012/04/28 08:56 PM |
Clustered MT as SMT for high frequency | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 10:44 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/04/29 06:19 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/04/29 04:31 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/04/29 10:26 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/04/30 07:08 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/04/30 08:59 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/04/30 05:10 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/04/30 05:32 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/04/30 09:47 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/05/01 01:24 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/05/01 04:46 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/05/01 05:37 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/05/01 07:19 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | hcl64 | 2012/05/01 06:39 AM |
PD-SOI | David Kanter | 2012/05/02 11:22 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | slacker | 2012/04/30 07:10 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/04/30 09:16 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | slacker | 2012/05/01 09:04 PM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | David Kanter | 2012/05/02 07:19 AM |
SOI, FD vs. PD | zou | 2012/05/02 11:23 AM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/04/28 06:00 AM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | hcl64 | 2012/04/28 08:38 PM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | David Kanter | 2012/04/30 03:37 PM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | hcl64 | 2012/04/30 06:24 PM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | David Kanter | 2012/04/30 06:40 PM |
Previous discussion of clustered MT | hcl64 | 2012/05/01 08:15 AM |
Latency issues | David Kanter | 2012/05/02 11:01 AM |
So, what do people think of these numbers> | Megol | 2012/04/21 12:57 AM |