Previous discussion of clustered MT

By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), April 30, 2012 7:40 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
hcl64 (mario.smarq@gmail.com) on 4/30/12 wrote:
---------------------------
>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 4/30/12 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>
>>>Also in that light SMT can be as efficiently implemented in a narrower
>>>core, cause is not for heavy computations. Also if memory access will be more important
>>>"a run-ahead scheme", that is, continue executing speculatively based on predicted
>>>and stored values and addresses, after a L1 or L2 miss(cache miss mitigation), seems
>>>better than SMT or spMT and so efficiently done at a >narrower core also.
>>
>>Run-ahead is a much simpler version of out-of-order. Judging by the results of
>>the POWER6, it's not a particularly attractive design choice. IBM went back to OOOE pretty quickly.
>>
>
>yes somehow related to OOOE, but in this what i was thinking was more based on
>the work of James David Dundas, and is more of a dynamic pre-processing on the code
>stream, that is, upon a L1 or L2 *data* miss(L1, L2, L3, depends on how aggressive
>you want to take it) a processor *doesn't stall waiting* but can continue executing
>instructions based on predicted speculative *data* addresses and values, without
>waiting for the correct addresses and values to arrive, or dependencies to be resolved(
>it can assume a very lax approach to dependencies).

It seems like that only works when your value predictions are highly accurate. If they aren't...you're going to waste tons of power.

>Contrary to forms of spMT or the Scout threads of Rock chip, this doesn't incur
>the penalties of a context switch( OTOH as limits on how much instructions can be
>processed this way- usually less than 3 digits by run, >depending on size of additional buffers etc.).

I think the real question is how much can you really get done in the shadow of a cache miss? How much could you get done on another thread? How much on an OOOE?

>Pre-processing so because many instructions can be so wrongly speculated and must
>be re-executed, but many can also be correctly speculated(large majority of the
>speculated in average if the prediction mechanisms are very good), and so it can
>be a very good pre-fetch and pre-execution method warming >all caches and accelerating execution.

"If" the predictions are correct, is a big if. I don't know how expensive it is to make a >90% accuracy value predictor in HW.

>In this light, i think "run-ahead" and SMT can't happen on the same core at the
>same time... but there can be a switch between modes on the >same core in a conditional subordinated way.

>>>I'm not implying about which is better, to me none is better at all things, not
>>>even now... but i'm very curious about AMD approach alright, that is why i inquired
>>>about fusing on-the-fly 2 Integer macro-ops into one XOP >before
>>>really curious if even Integer processing can be done in >good extent at a co-processor
>>>( FlexFPU *is* a co-processor).
>>
>>1. What do you mean by a coprocessor? To me the FPU is just an FPU shared by two
>>cores. It's no more a coprocessor than the FPUs in Sandy Bridge are coprocessors.
>>
>
>ummm... no not like SNB at all

How is it different?

>Co-processor organization
>
>http://techreport.com/r.x/bulldozer-uarch/bulldozer-fpu.jpg

That's a marketing diagram. It's not a definition. What do you think a co-processor is?

>So *perhaps*(don't know any details) that is one of the >beauties of a *module*.
>Co-processors can not only happen on different PCBs, in >different dies interposed
>in MCM, on the same die on different parts of a integrated >xbar, but now also on much closer proximity...

You still haven't told me what a "co-processor" is...

>>2. Speculatively fusing x86 instructions is challenging. What if they aren't adjacent
>>in the code stream? Macro-fusion requires this, and it's common for CMP+JMP. But
>>that's not necessarily true for integer adds.
>>
>>3. How do you handle load/store alignment?
>>
>>4. How do you handle exceptions that occur between the two instructions? You'd have to do a partial register rollback.
>>
>>5. How many x86 integer instructions have been extended with XOP? It's a relatively
>>small number (add, multiply-add, compare).
>>
>>Honestly, I think it would be more productive to try and speculativcely fuse FP
>>MUL and ADD, if you had an FMA unit with intermediate rounding.
>>
>
>Good questions, that perhaps you could pose to an AMD >representative, if you have the chance Mr Kanter.

Why would I bother to ask? They aren't doing such a thing.

>IF i'm not mistaken the majority of XOP is Integer (3 >operand) total pack has more
>than one hundredth instructions defined, i think.
>
>Perhaps integer fusing could be also a good thing.

Doubtful. The latency would also kill you.

David
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              Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyPaul A. Clayton2012/04/20 04:10 PM
                Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 12:56 AM
                  Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyanonymous2012/04/28 01:43 AM
                    Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 02:59 PM
                      Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyanonymous2012/04/28 08:45 PM
                  Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyanon2012/04/28 02:13 AM
                    Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 03:23 PM
                      Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyanon2012/04/28 06:19 PM
                        Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 07:58 PM
                  Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyDavid Kanter2012/04/28 06:38 AM
                    Guessed meaning of "strong dependency model"Paul A. Clayton2012/04/28 07:24 AM
                      Guessed meaning of "strong dependency model"EduardoS2012/04/28 09:46 AM
                        *Right meaning* about "strong dependency model"hcl642012/04/28 04:59 PM
                    Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 04:24 PM
                      Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyanonymous2012/04/28 08:50 PM
                        Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 09:47 PM
                          SNB widthDavid Kanter2012/04/28 09:48 PM
                            SNB widthhcl642012/04/29 02:24 AM
                      Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyDavid Kanter2012/04/28 09:56 PM
                        Clustered MT as SMT for high frequencyhcl642012/04/28 11:44 PM
                          SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/04/29 07:19 AM
                            SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/04/29 05:31 PM
                              SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/04/29 11:26 PM
                                SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/04/30 08:08 AM
                                  SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/04/30 09:59 AM
                                    SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/04/30 06:10 PM
                                      SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/04/30 06:32 PM
                                        SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/04/30 10:47 PM
                                          SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/05/01 02:24 AM
                                            SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/05/01 05:46 AM
                                            SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/05/01 06:37 AM
                                              SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/05/01 08:19 AM
                                          SOI, FD vs. PDhcl642012/05/01 07:39 AM
                                            PD-SOIDavid Kanter2012/05/02 12:22 PM
                                    SOI, FD vs. PDslacker2012/04/30 08:10 PM
                                      SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/04/30 10:16 PM
                                        SOI, FD vs. PDslacker2012/05/01 10:04 PM
                                          SOI, FD vs. PDDavid Kanter2012/05/02 08:19 AM
                                            SOI, FD vs. PDzou2012/05/02 12:23 PM
                  Previous discussion of clustered MTPaul A. Clayton2012/04/28 07:00 AM
                    Previous discussion of clustered MThcl642012/04/28 09:38 PM
                      Previous discussion of clustered MTDavid Kanter2012/04/30 04:37 PM
                        Previous discussion of clustered MThcl642012/04/30 07:24 PM
                          Previous discussion of clustered MTDavid Kanter2012/04/30 07:40 PM
                            Previous discussion of clustered MThcl642012/05/01 09:15 AM
                              Latency issuesDavid Kanter2012/05/02 12:01 PM
              So, what do people think of these numbers>Megol2012/04/21 01:57 AM
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