Article: ARM Goes 64-bit
By: Ray (not.delete@this.going.to.happen), November 19, 2012 9:27 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on November 19, 2012 7:59 am wrote:
[snip]
> > And maybe Google will man up and give developers tools so
> > they can compile to their virtual machine without
> > sacrificing speed/features. All the developers who pollute
> > the market place with native binaries are a pain.
>
> As a compiler expert I'm sceptical that virtual machines can ever deliver close to native performance. The
> key issue with JIT compilation is that you just do not have the resources of a native compiler. It doesn't
> help that many intermediate bytecodes are completely unoptimized, making the problem far worse (what is the
> point of Java compilers emitting x * 0 in byte codes?!?). What you actually want to do is to perform as much
> work as possible in the static compiler and end up with a highly optimized intermediate code that just needs
> to be converted into the final target assembly with a quick peephole pass. For example you want to do register
> allocation to a virtual 16-register target (so it maps trivially to Thumb-2, ARM64 and x64).
Have you heard of Semantic Dictionary Encoding? http://www.hokstad.com/semantic-dictionary-encoding.html . It's basically a dump of the internal state of a compiler right at the instant before it generates a binary, represented as a compressed tree. It's _really_ compact.
Producing native code basically involved just feeding this data to the chunk of the compiler that does peepholing and emission of code, at load time. This was both simple and fast, and binary generation was actually faster than loading native binaries at the time, because the representation is so compact that IO speed was more limiting than the code generation.
I was very annoyed when Sun released Java later, and it was yet another 20 year old p-code machine variant (and incidentally, p-code machines were partially popularized 20 years earlier by the same group working then on SDE). Talk about not doing your homework!
-Ray
[snip]
> > And maybe Google will man up and give developers tools so
> > they can compile to their virtual machine without
> > sacrificing speed/features. All the developers who pollute
> > the market place with native binaries are a pain.
>
> As a compiler expert I'm sceptical that virtual machines can ever deliver close to native performance. The
> key issue with JIT compilation is that you just do not have the resources of a native compiler. It doesn't
> help that many intermediate bytecodes are completely unoptimized, making the problem far worse (what is the
> point of Java compilers emitting x * 0 in byte codes?!?). What you actually want to do is to perform as much
> work as possible in the static compiler and end up with a highly optimized intermediate code that just needs
> to be converted into the final target assembly with a quick peephole pass. For example you want to do register
> allocation to a virtual 16-register target (so it maps trivially to Thumb-2, ARM64 and x64).
Have you heard of Semantic Dictionary Encoding? http://www.hokstad.com/semantic-dictionary-encoding.html . It's basically a dump of the internal state of a compiler right at the instant before it generates a binary, represented as a compressed tree. It's _really_ compact.
Producing native code basically involved just feeding this data to the chunk of the compiler that does peepholing and emission of code, at load time. This was both simple and fast, and binary generation was actually faster than loading native binaries at the time, because the representation is so compact that IO speed was more limiting than the code generation.
I was very annoyed when Sun released Java later, and it was yet another 20 year old p-code machine variant (and incidentally, p-code machines were partially popularized 20 years earlier by the same group working then on SDE). Talk about not doing your homework!
-Ray
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/08/13 11:04 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/13 11:44 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/08/14 12:04 AM |
MIPS MT-ASE | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 08:01 AM |
MONITOR/MWAIT | EduardoS | 2012/08/14 09:08 AM |
MWAIT not specifically MT | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 09:36 AM |
MWAIT not specifically MT | EduardoS | 2012/08/15 02:16 PM |
MONITOR/MWAIT | anonymou5 | 2012/08/14 10:07 AM |
MONITOR/MWAIT | EduardoS | 2012/08/15 02:20 PM |
MIPS MT-ASE | rwessel | 2012/08/14 09:14 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | SHK | 2012/08/14 01:01 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 01:37 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/14 02:57 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 03:29 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/14 03:44 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 04:28 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 04:32 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/08/14 05:06 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/14 04:40 AM |
AArch64 select better than cmov | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 05:08 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 05:12 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/14 05:25 AM |
Predicated ld/store are useful | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 05:48 AM |
Predicated ld/store are useful | none | 2012/08/14 05:56 AM |
Predicated ld/store are useful | anon | 2012/08/14 06:07 AM |
Predicated stores might not be that bad | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 06:27 AM |
Predicated stores might not be that bad | David Kanter | 2012/08/15 12:14 AM |
Predicated stores might not be that bad | Michael S | 2012/08/15 10:41 AM |
Predicated stores might not be that bad | R Byron | 2012/08/17 03:09 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 05:54 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/14 06:04 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 06:43 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/08/14 05:07 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 05:20 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | none | 2012/08/14 05:29 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anon | 2012/08/14 06:00 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Michael S | 2012/08/14 02:43 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/14 05:53 AM |
OT: Conrad's "Youth" | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/14 06:20 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/08/14 05:04 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | mpx | 2012/08/14 07:59 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Antti-Ville Tuunainen | 2012/08/14 08:16 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | anonymou5 | 2012/08/14 10:03 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | name99 | 2012/11/17 02:31 PM |
Microarchitecting a counter register | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/11/17 06:37 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | bakaneko | 2012/08/14 03:21 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | name99 | 2012/11/17 02:40 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/17 03:52 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Doug S | 2012/11/17 04:48 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | bakaneko | 2012/11/18 04:40 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Wilco | 2012/11/19 06:59 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/19 07:23 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Wilco | 2012/11/19 08:31 AM |
Downloading µarch-specific binaries? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/11/19 10:21 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/19 10:41 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Wilco | 2012/11/21 06:44 AM |
JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit) | VMguy | 2012/11/22 02:21 AM |
JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit) | David Kanter | 2012/11/22 11:12 AM |
JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit) | Gabriele Svelto | 2012/11/23 02:50 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/23 09:09 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EBFE | 2012/11/26 12:24 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Gabriele Svelto | 2012/11/26 02:33 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EBFE | 2012/11/27 10:17 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Gabriele Svelto | 2012/11/28 01:32 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/26 11:16 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EBFE | 2012/11/27 11:33 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 04:53 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Michael S | 2012/11/28 05:15 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 06:33 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Michael S | 2012/11/28 08:16 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 08:53 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Eugene Nalimov | 2012/11/28 04:58 PM |
Amazing! | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 06:25 PM |
Amazing! (non-italic response) | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 06:25 PM |
Amazing! | EBFE | 2012/11/28 07:20 PM |
Undefined behaviour doubles down | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 08:10 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EBFE | 2012/11/28 06:54 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | EduardoS | 2012/11/28 08:21 PM |
Have you heard of Transmeta? | David Kanter | 2012/11/19 02:47 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | bakaneko | 2012/11/19 08:08 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/11/19 02:40 PM |
Semantic Dictionary Encoding | Ray | 2012/11/19 09:37 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Rohit | 2012/11/20 03:48 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/11/20 10:07 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Wilco | 2012/11/21 05:41 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/11/21 09:12 AM |
A JIT example | Mark Roulo | 2012/11/21 09:30 AM |
A JIT example | Wilco | 2012/11/21 06:04 PM |
A JIT example | rwessel | 2012/11/21 08:05 PM |
A JIT example | Gabriele Svelto | 2012/11/23 02:53 AM |
A JIT example | EduardoS | 2012/11/23 09:13 AM |
A JIT example | Wilco | 2012/11/23 12:41 PM |
A JIT example | EduardoS | 2012/11/23 01:06 PM |
A JIT example | Gabriele Svelto | 2012/11/23 03:09 PM |
A JIT example | Symmetry | 2012/11/26 04:58 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Ray | 2012/11/19 09:27 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/08/14 08:11 AM |
v7-M is Thumb-only | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 05:58 AM |
Minor suggested correction | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/14 07:33 AM |
Minor suggested correction | anon | 2012/08/14 07:57 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Exophase | 2012/08/14 07:33 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/08/14 08:16 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | jigal | 2012/08/15 12:49 PM |
Correction re ARM and BBC Micro | Paul | 2012/08/14 07:59 PM |
Correction re ARM and BBC Micro | Per Hesselgren | 2012/08/15 02:27 AM |
Memory BW so low | Per Hesselgren | 2012/08/15 02:14 AM |
Memory BW so low | none | 2012/08/15 10:16 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | dado | 2012/08/15 09:25 AM |
Number of GPRs | Kenneth Jonsson | 2012/08/16 01:35 PM |
Number of GPRs | Exophase | 2012/08/16 01:52 PM |
Number of GPRs | Kenneth Jonsson | 2012/08/17 01:41 AM |
Ooops, missing link... | Kenneth Jonsson | 2012/08/17 01:44 AM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 05:19 AM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | bakaneko | 2012/08/17 07:37 AM |
Brute force seems to work | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 09:08 AM |
Brute force seems to work | bakaneko | 2012/08/17 10:15 AM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/17 07:46 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 09:43 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/17 11:57 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Howard Chu | 2012/08/22 09:17 PM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/23 03:48 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Howard Chu | 2012/08/23 05:51 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Wilco | 2012/08/17 01:41 PM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/17 03:13 PM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Ricardo B | 2012/08/19 09:44 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Howard Chu | 2012/08/22 09:08 PM |
Unified libraries? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/23 06:49 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/23 07:44 AM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Howard Chu | 2012/08/23 04:17 PM |
Pointer compression is atypical | anon | 2012/08/23 07:15 PM |
Pointer compression is atypical | Howard Chu | 2012/08/23 08:33 PM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | Foo_ | 2012/08/18 11:09 AM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/18 04:25 PM |
64-bit pointers eat some performance | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/18 04:32 PM |
Page-related benefit of small pointers | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/23 07:36 AM |
Number of GPRs | Wilco | 2012/08/17 05:31 AM |
Number of GPRs | Kenneth Jonsson | 2012/08/17 10:54 AM |
Number of GPRs | Exophase | 2012/08/17 11:44 AM |
Number of GPRs | Kenneth Jonsson | 2012/08/17 12:22 PM |
Number of GPRs | Wilco | 2012/08/17 01:53 PM |
What about dynamic utilization? | Exophase | 2012/08/17 08:30 AM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 09:20 AM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | Exophase | 2012/08/17 10:09 AM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | anon | 2012/08/18 01:23 AM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | Ricardo B | 2012/08/19 10:02 AM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | anon | 2012/08/19 05:07 PM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | Ricardo B | 2012/08/19 06:26 PM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | anon | 2012/08/19 09:03 PM |
Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge? | anon | 2012/08/20 12:59 AM |
Number of GPRs | David Kanter | 2012/08/17 11:46 AM |
RAT issues as part of reason 1 | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 01:18 PM |
Number of GPRs | name99 | 2012/11/17 05:37 PM |
Large ARFs increase renaming cost | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/11/17 08:23 PM |
Number of GPRs | David Kanter | 2012/08/16 02:31 PM |
Number of GPRs | Richard Cownie | 2012/08/16 04:17 PM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/16 05:27 PM |
Oops, Message-ID: aaed6e38-c7bd-467e-ba41-f40cf1020e5e@googlegroups.com (NT) | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/16 05:29 PM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | Exophase | 2012/08/16 09:06 PM |
R31 as SP/zero is kind of neat (NT) | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 05:23 AM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | rwessel | 2012/08/17 07:24 AM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | Exophase | 2012/08/17 08:16 AM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | Max | 2012/08/17 03:19 PM |
32 GPRs ~2-3% | name99 | 2012/11/17 06:43 PM |
Number of GPRs | mpx | 2012/08/17 12:11 AM |
Latency and power | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/17 05:54 AM |
Number of GPRs | bakaneko | 2012/08/17 02:09 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Steve | 2012/08/17 01:12 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | David Kanter | 2012/08/19 11:42 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Doug S | 2012/08/19 01:02 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Anon | 2012/08/19 06:16 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Steve | 2012/08/30 06:51 AM |
Scalar vs Vector registers | Robert David Graham | 2012/08/19 04:19 PM |
Scalar vs Vector registers | David Kanter | 2012/08/19 04:29 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Baserock ARM servers | 2012/08/21 03:13 PM |
Baserock ARM servers | Sysanon | 2012/08/21 03:14 PM |
A-15 virtualization and LPAE? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/21 05:13 PM |
A-15 virtualization and LPAE? | Anon | 2012/08/21 06:13 PM |
Half-depth advantages? | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/21 07:42 PM |
Half-depth advantages? | Anon | 2012/08/22 02:33 PM |
Thanks for the information (NT) | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/22 03:04 PM |
A-15 virtualization and LPAE? | C. Ladisch | 2012/08/23 10:12 AM |
A-15 virtualization and LPAE? | Paul | 2012/08/23 02:17 PM |
Excessive pessimism | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/23 03:08 PM |
Excessive pessimism | David Kanter | 2012/08/23 04:05 PM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Michael S | 2012/08/22 06:12 AM |
BTW, Baserock==product, Codethink==company (NT) | Paul A. Clayton | 2012/08/22 07:56 AM |
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit | Reinoud Zandijk | 2012/08/21 10:27 PM |