New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit

Article: ARM Goes 64-bit
By: EduardoS (no.delete@this.spam.com), November 23, 2012 10:09 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on November 21, 2012 7:44 am wrote:
> Install-time compilation would be far better than using a JIT indeed. But you still may not have
> enough memory/performance for link-time whole program optimization with profile feedback.

On desktops the time consuming compilation is done at background, in phones it can be done during recharge time, no?

Oh, and with the most up to date and relevant profile feedback.

> Rubbish. GC is memory inefficient by definition, so claiming it is better for locality is just wishful
> thinking. Compacting GC's typically need 2-3 times more memory than a non-compacting GC, so are worse on
> average.

Your claims don't hold true...

Every allocator use more memory than strictly necessary (later about C++), GC does the job of moving data toghether from time to time wich negates fragmentation.

> Also the much higher memory allocation rate and resulting collections are bad for locality.

Allocations are cheap, collecting short lived objects is cheap too.

> Concurrent GC has even larger overheads. It stops threads for shorter periods but stops them more often, so
> takes far longer overall. And then we haven't considered the far higher overheads on the generated code.

I don't know about what GC you are talking...

The concurrent GC I have in mind originated from the non-concurrent GC, the most recent generation collections still blocking wich the full GC running in background until it needs blocking, so there is the same numbers of full stops but the most time consuming stop is shorter.

Yes, it uses more resources, but on s single-threaded application such resources does exist, and wouldn't be used in another way.

> No, no space is wasted, unlike GC which requires descriptors for every object.

Descriptors aren't strictly necessary and can be encoded in the vtable pointer, the reason many VMs doesn't omit the descriptor is because it is not that expensive.

But C++ allocators waste space, for example, on Windows, before LFH deallocated objects left holes in the heap, some wich were left unused for lack of a suitable object, a problem called "fragmentation" and it is accumalative, the longer the app runs the worse it gets, see the wasted space? Locality isn't good either, objects go were there is space, not near related objects.

LFH allocates 64k for every object size rounded to lowest higher power of 2, wich, by definition waste the space between that power of 2 and the actual object size, and, if there is not enough objects of a given size to fill the segment, it also waste the segment unused space. Locality suffers as well since objects are placed by it's size and related objects may end very far from each other.

> Instructions that can trap are bad. That's why you see modern FPUs
> implement IEEE so you never need traps, not even for denormals.

Ok, instructions that may trap, loads, store, branches and integer division...

On a normal applications it is about half the instructions, the reason modern FPU don't need to trap is mostly because having to handle an exception in normal flow is a pain in the access, exceptions are supposed to be exceptions, not part of normal flow.

> Since when is a memory access cheap? Every unnecesary instruction has a cost.

Sure it have a cost, a non-blocking load will consume one decoder, one port for one cycle and one slot in a modern processor, wich will likely pass without being noticed, so it is a small cost, that's why I called it cheap.

> The barriers and other checks for concurrent GC or multithreaded access
> to fields are not exactly zero-cost and block many optimizations.

Maybe that's why the "volatile" keyword exists?

Anyway, MS doesn't implement the weak memory model that the C# or C++ specs allow, many applications wouldn't work if they did.

> By your logic, C++ would be much slower than C as C++ is quite new. Clearly that's not the case - and the
> simple reason is that much of what goes on inside is unrelated to the source language or the target.

No, that's not my logic, reread my statement.

> Not sure what your point is here. Yes VC++ does extremely well as it is optimized
> to do well on the millions of lines of code that people actually write (such as Windows
> and its apps) - as opposed to showing huge gains on a few small benchmarks.

.Net code generation isn't all that different from VC++.

Did you read when I wrote VC++ is conservative?

> Wrong. Exceptions can only happen explicitly with throw in C++.

Or when the program hits an undefined behaviour...

And there are quite a few undefined behaviours in C++ spec.

BTW, I am not limiting myself to C++ exceptions, any hardware exception is valid, VMs may handle exceptions by traping the hardware exceptions, if there is no try...catch block no need to care about order or barries, the program will crash anyway... Like it is done in C++.

> The problem is not just the ordering, but the fact that more operations can cause exceptions. That alone
> creates a lot of overhead as you need to model flows from every possible exception to all possible exception
> handlers. Local variable values need to be preserved for example, severely limiting optimizations.

If there is a registered handler...

And the implementation can, for example, let the heavy lifting of restoring state for the exception handler, giving more freedom for optimizations in the normal flow.

> The performance cost is high if you happen to use arrays a lot.

And if the optimizer fails to remove the redundant checks.
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TopicPosted ByDate
New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/08/14 12:04 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 12:44 AM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/08/14 01:04 AM
    MIPS MT-ASEPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 09:01 AM
      MONITOR/MWAITEduardoS2012/08/14 10:08 AM
        MWAIT not specifically MTPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 10:36 AM
          MWAIT not specifically MTEduardoS2012/08/15 03:16 PM
        MONITOR/MWAITanonymou52012/08/14 11:07 AM
          MONITOR/MWAITEduardoS2012/08/15 03:20 PM
      MIPS MT-ASErwessel2012/08/14 10:14 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitSHK2012/08/14 02:01 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 02:37 AM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitRichard Cownie2012/08/14 03:57 AM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 04:29 AM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 04:44 AM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 05:28 AM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 05:32 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/08/14 06:06 AM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 05:40 AM
            AArch64 select better than cmovPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 06:08 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 06:12 AM
              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 06:25 AM
                Predicated ld/store are usefulPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 06:48 AM
                  Predicated ld/store are usefulnone2012/08/14 06:56 AM
                    Predicated ld/store are usefulanon2012/08/14 07:07 AM
                    Predicated stores might not be that badPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 07:27 AM
                      Predicated stores might not be that badDavid Kanter2012/08/15 01:14 AM
                        Predicated stores might not be that badMichael S2012/08/15 11:41 AM
                        Predicated stores might not be that badR Byron2012/08/17 04:09 AM
                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 06:54 AM
                  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 07:04 AM
                    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 07:43 AM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/08/14 06:07 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 06:20 AM
              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitnone2012/08/14 06:29 AM
                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanon2012/08/14 07:00 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitMichael S2012/08/14 03:43 PM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitRichard Cownie2012/08/14 06:53 AM
          OT: Conrad's "Youth"Richard Cownie2012/08/14 07:20 AM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/08/14 06:04 AM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitmpx2012/08/14 08:59 AM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitAntti-Ville Tuunainen2012/08/14 09:16 AM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitanonymou52012/08/14 11:03 AM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitname992012/11/17 03:31 PM
            Microarchitecting a counter registerPaul A. Clayton2012/11/17 07:37 PM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitbakaneko2012/08/14 04:21 AM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitname992012/11/17 03:40 PM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/17 04:52 PM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDoug S2012/11/17 05:48 PM
        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitbakaneko2012/11/18 05:40 PM
          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitWilco2012/11/19 07:59 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/19 08:23 AM
              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitWilco2012/11/19 09:31 AM
                Downloading µarch-specific binaries?Paul A. Clayton2012/11/19 11:21 AM
                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/19 11:41 AM
                  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitWilco2012/11/21 07:44 AM
                    JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit)VMguy2012/11/22 03:21 AM
                      JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit)David Kanter2012/11/22 12:12 PM
                        JIT vs. static compilation (Was: New Article: ARM Goes 64-bit)Gabriele Svelto2012/11/23 03:50 AM
                    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/23 10:09 AM
                      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEBFE2012/11/26 01:24 AM
                        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitGabriele Svelto2012/11/26 03:33 AM
                          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEBFE2012/11/27 11:17 PM
                            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitGabriele Svelto2012/11/28 02:32 AM
                        New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/26 12:16 PM
                          New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEBFE2012/11/28 12:33 AM
                            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/28 05:53 AM
                              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitMichael S2012/11/28 06:15 AM
                                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/28 07:33 AM
                                  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitMichael S2012/11/28 09:16 AM
                                    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/28 09:53 AM
                                    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEugene Nalimov2012/11/28 05:58 PM
                                      Amazing!EduardoS2012/11/28 07:25 PM
                                        Amazing! (non-italic response)EduardoS2012/11/28 07:25 PM
                                        Amazing!EBFE2012/11/28 08:20 PM
                                          Undefined behaviour doubles downEduardoS2012/11/28 09:10 PM
                              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEBFE2012/11/28 07:54 PM
                                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitEduardoS2012/11/28 09:21 PM
                Have you heard of Transmeta?David Kanter2012/11/19 03:47 PM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitbakaneko2012/11/19 09:08 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/11/19 03:40 PM
              Semantic Dictionary EncodingRay2012/11/19 10:37 PM
              New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitRohit2012/11/20 04:48 PM
                New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/11/20 11:07 PM
                  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitWilco2012/11/21 06:41 AM
                    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/11/21 10:12 AM
                    A JIT exampleMark Roulo2012/11/21 10:30 AM
                      A JIT exampleWilco2012/11/21 07:04 PM
                        A JIT examplerwessel2012/11/21 09:05 PM
                        A JIT exampleGabriele Svelto2012/11/23 03:53 AM
                        A JIT exampleEduardoS2012/11/23 10:13 AM
                          A JIT exampleWilco2012/11/23 01:41 PM
                            A JIT exampleEduardoS2012/11/23 02:06 PM
                            A JIT exampleGabriele Svelto2012/11/23 04:09 PM
                              A JIT exampleSymmetry2012/11/26 05:58 AM
            New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitRay2012/11/19 10:27 PM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/08/14 09:11 AM
  v7-M is Thumb-onlyPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 06:58 AM
  Minor suggested correctionPaul A. Clayton2012/08/14 08:33 AM
    Minor suggested correctionanon2012/08/14 08:57 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitExophase2012/08/14 08:33 AM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/08/14 09:16 AM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitjigal2012/08/15 01:49 PM
  Correction re ARM and BBC MicroPaul2012/08/14 08:59 PM
    Correction re ARM and BBC MicroPer Hesselgren2012/08/15 03:27 AM
  Memory BW so lowPer Hesselgren2012/08/15 03:14 AM
    Memory BW so lownone2012/08/15 11:16 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitdado2012/08/15 10:25 AM
  Number of GPRsKenneth Jonsson2012/08/16 02:35 PM
    Number of GPRsExophase2012/08/16 02:52 PM
      Number of GPRsKenneth Jonsson2012/08/17 02:41 AM
        Ooops, missing link...Kenneth Jonsson2012/08/17 02:44 AM
        64-bit pointers eat some performancePaul A. Clayton2012/08/17 06:19 AM
          64-bit pointers eat some performancebakaneko2012/08/17 08:37 AM
            Brute force seems to workPaul A. Clayton2012/08/17 10:08 AM
              Brute force seems to workbakaneko2012/08/17 11:15 AM
          64-bit pointers eat some performanceRichard Cownie2012/08/17 08:46 AM
            Pointer compression is atypicalPaul A. Clayton2012/08/17 10:43 AM
              Pointer compression is atypicalRichard Cownie2012/08/17 12:57 PM
                Pointer compression is atypicalHoward Chu2012/08/22 10:17 PM
                  Pointer compression is atypicalRichard Cownie2012/08/23 04:48 AM
                    Pointer compression is atypicalHoward Chu2012/08/23 06:51 AM
              Pointer compression is atypicalWilco2012/08/17 02:41 PM
                Pointer compression is atypicalRichard Cownie2012/08/17 04:13 PM
                  Pointer compression is atypicalRicardo B2012/08/19 10:44 AM
                  Pointer compression is atypicalHoward Chu2012/08/22 10:08 PM
                    Unified libraries?Paul A. Clayton2012/08/23 07:49 AM
                    Pointer compression is atypicalRichard Cownie2012/08/23 08:44 AM
                      Pointer compression is atypicalHoward Chu2012/08/23 05:17 PM
                        Pointer compression is atypicalanon2012/08/23 08:15 PM
                          Pointer compression is atypicalHoward Chu2012/08/23 09:33 PM
            64-bit pointers eat some performanceFoo_2012/08/18 12:09 PM
              64-bit pointers eat some performanceRichard Cownie2012/08/18 05:25 PM
                64-bit pointers eat some performanceRichard Cownie2012/08/18 05:32 PM
            Page-related benefit of small pointersPaul A. Clayton2012/08/23 08:36 AM
        Number of GPRsWilco2012/08/17 06:31 AM
          Number of GPRsKenneth Jonsson2012/08/17 11:54 AM
            Number of GPRsExophase2012/08/17 12:44 PM
              Number of GPRsKenneth Jonsson2012/08/17 01:22 PM
                Number of GPRsWilco2012/08/17 02:53 PM
        What about dynamic utilization?Exophase2012/08/17 09:30 AM
          Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?Paul A. Clayton2012/08/17 10:20 AM
            Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?Exophase2012/08/17 11:09 AM
            Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?anon2012/08/18 02:23 AM
              Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?Ricardo B2012/08/19 11:02 AM
                Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?anon2012/08/19 06:07 PM
                  Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?Ricardo B2012/08/19 07:26 PM
                    Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?anon2012/08/19 10:03 PM
                      Compiler vs. assembly aliasing knowledge?anon2012/08/20 01:59 AM
        Number of GPRsDavid Kanter2012/08/17 12:46 PM
          RAT issues as part of reason 1Paul A. Clayton2012/08/17 02:18 PM
        Number of GPRsname992012/11/17 06:37 PM
          Large ARFs increase renaming costPaul A. Clayton2012/11/17 09:23 PM
    Number of GPRsDavid Kanter2012/08/16 03:31 PM
    Number of GPRsRichard Cownie2012/08/16 05:17 PM
    32 GPRs ~2-3%Paul A. Clayton2012/08/16 06:27 PM
      Oops, Message-ID: aaed6e38-c7bd-467e-ba41-f40cf1020e5e@googlegroups.com (NT)Paul A. Clayton2012/08/16 06:29 PM
      32 GPRs ~2-3%Exophase2012/08/16 10:06 PM
        R31 as SP/zero is kind of neat (NT)Paul A. Clayton2012/08/17 06:23 AM
        32 GPRs ~2-3%rwessel2012/08/17 08:24 AM
          32 GPRs ~2-3%Exophase2012/08/17 09:16 AM
            32 GPRs ~2-3%Max2012/08/17 04:19 PM
      32 GPRs ~2-3%name992012/11/17 07:43 PM
    Number of GPRsmpx2012/08/17 01:11 AM
      Latency and powerPaul A. Clayton2012/08/17 06:54 AM
    Number of GPRsbakaneko2012/08/17 03:09 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitSteve2012/08/17 02:12 PM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDavid Kanter2012/08/19 12:42 PM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitDoug S2012/08/19 02:02 PM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitAnon2012/08/19 07:16 PM
      New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitSteve2012/08/30 07:51 AM
  Scalar vs Vector registersRobert David Graham2012/08/19 05:19 PM
    Scalar vs Vector registersDavid Kanter2012/08/19 05:29 PM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitBaserock ARM servers2012/08/21 04:13 PM
    Baserock ARM serversSysanon2012/08/21 04:14 PM
    A-15 virtualization and LPAE?Paul A. Clayton2012/08/21 06:13 PM
      A-15 virtualization and LPAE?Anon2012/08/21 07:13 PM
        Half-depth advantages?Paul A. Clayton2012/08/21 08:42 PM
          Half-depth advantages?Anon2012/08/22 03:33 PM
            Thanks for the information (NT)Paul A. Clayton2012/08/22 04:04 PM
      A-15 virtualization and LPAE?C. Ladisch2012/08/23 11:12 AM
        A-15 virtualization and LPAE?Paul2012/08/23 03:17 PM
        Excessive pessimismPaul A. Clayton2012/08/23 04:08 PM
          Excessive pessimismDavid Kanter2012/08/23 05:05 PM
    New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitMichael S2012/08/22 07:12 AM
      BTW, Baserock==product, Codethink==company (NT)Paul A. Clayton2012/08/22 08:56 AM
  New Article: ARM Goes 64-bitReinoud Zandijk2012/08/21 11:27 PM
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