The benefits of (non-perceived) flicker

Article: Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Display
By: Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar), January 7, 2013 4:40 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Ungo (a.delete@this.b.c.d.e) on January 7, 2013 3:57 pm wrote:
> Max (max.delete@this.a.com) on January 7, 2013 1:43 pm wrote:
> > Oddly enough the flickering nature of CRTs (whether perceived or not) makes them inherently superior
> > in displaying motion than modern panel displays. A moving image (updated at the display refresh
> > rate) appears sharp, whereas on a non-flickering display it appears fuzzy. This would be true
> > even if the panel can update instantly, so it's not a problem that will ever go away.
>
> The bolded statement is not true. The reason why moving objects on LCDs often look fuzzy is because
> LCD pixels have poor response times. Take that away, and the fuzziness should go too.
>
> Consider a black-to-white transition on pixel 0,0 at a 60 Hz refresh rate. On frame 0 (t=0ms) it's black.
> On frame 1 (t=16.67ms) we want to refresh it to white. The electrodes for pixel 0,0 are charged to select
> full-on at 16.67ms, with very little delay (there is some capacitance to overcome), but the liquid crystal
> material cannot respond instantly. It takes several milliseconds to twist or untwist and realign itself
> to the new electric field. IIRC, 4ms is a pretty decent performance figure for black-to-white or white-to-black.
> (Note that the cheap TN LCDs found in most notebooks are much worse.)
>
> What you get is an intensity ramp over t=16.67ms to t=20.67ms. This means that during the first frame, averaged
> brightness is significantly less than full brightness. This effect is not very important for static images,
> but the leading edges of a moving object appear to be averaged with the background they're replacing, and the
> trailing edges leave a ghost. That's what creates the perception of fuzziness or loss of contrast.


My understanding is that most LCDs have longest delayed for gray to gray transitions, not black to white or white to black. The "2 ms" response quoted for some LCDs is always the optimal condition, either off to full on or full on to off. Gray to gray is significantly longer - long enough that on lower end LCDs (ALL LCDs as of about 4-5 years ago) 60 frame updates per second is not possible. Thus plasmas have always been preferable for showing fast motion as in sports (and presumably gaming, though monitor sized plasmas never become cost effective to produce) It is only in the last few years that higher end LCDs became capable of displaying 720p/60 without ghosting.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDavid Kanter2013/01/01 04:14 AM
  Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Mark Roulo2013/01/01 02:22 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?David Kanter2013/01/01 07:58 PM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/03 12:04 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Andy2013/01/03 04:05 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/06 02:10 AM
            Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EBFE2013/01/06 11:07 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Seni2013/01/01 09:17 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/02 04:00 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EduardoS2013/01/02 09:07 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/03 12:21 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EduardoS2013/01/03 01:03 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ricardo B2013/01/02 11:01 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Michael S2013/01/03 01:35 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Andy2013/01/03 04:10 AM
            Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Michael S2013/01/03 06:33 AM
              Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?rwessel2013/01/03 11:56 AM
                Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?rwessel2013/01/03 11:56 AM
                  Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double post (NT)rwessel2013/01/03 12:01 PM
                    /load/loud/ grrr... (NT)rwessel2013/01/03 12:02 PM
                    Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postDavid Kanter2013/01/10 10:07 AM
                      Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:33 PM
                        Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:35 PM
                          Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:40 PM
                          Me, too! :-)Mark Roulo2013/01/11 08:57 AM
              85 Hz CRT monitorsDoug S2013/01/04 02:12 PM
                85 Hz CRT monitorsAnon2013/01/06 02:16 AM
                  85 Hz CRT monitorsDoug S2013/01/06 12:40 PM
                    The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/07 01:43 PM
                      The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/07 02:59 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerPaul2013/01/07 05:40 PM
                      The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerUngo2013/01/07 03:57 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerDoug S2013/01/07 04:40 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/07 06:16 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/09 09:50 PM
                            The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/10 06:18 AM
                              The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerSM2013/01/10 12:37 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerdmsc2013/01/07 07:36 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerEBFE2013/01/07 11:08 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/09 10:07 PM
                            The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerdmsc2013/01/10 04:41 PM
                              The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerUngo2013/01/11 05:20 PM
                    perception of flickerCarlie Coats2013/01/08 04:39 PM
                      perception of flickerDoug S2013/01/08 10:25 PM
                        perception of flickerAnon2013/01/09 10:09 PM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anongamer2013/01/03 04:31 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Richard Cownie2013/01/02 02:56 PM
        Tablet vs. console GPUsDoug S2013/01/02 04:09 PM
          Tablet vs. console GPUsRicardo B2013/01/02 04:50 PM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/03 12:13 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/03 12:54 AM
          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 07:02 AM
            Thanks for the interesting data point! (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/01/03 09:26 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRicardo B2013/01/03 11:17 AM
              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 11:55 AM
                The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 12:44 PM
                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRicardo B2013/01/03 01:42 PM
                    The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 02:31 PM
                      The Hobbit is at 48 fpsy2013/01/04 07:47 PM
                        Exposure time traditionsNathan Monson2013/01/05 12:21 PM
                          Exposure time traditionsy2013/01/05 09:59 PM
                            Exposure time traditionsanon2013/01/06 01:46 AM
                              Exposure time traditionsJukka Larja2013/01/07 08:52 AM
                            Exposure time traditionsdmsc2013/01/06 09:34 AM
                              Exposure time traditionsy2013/01/06 09:11 PM
                                Exposure time traditionsdmsc2013/01/07 07:42 PM
                                  Exposure time traditionsRichard Cownie2013/01/09 08:23 AM
                        The Hobbit is at 48 fpsMichael S2013/01/05 12:30 PM
                          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/05 03:45 PM
                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/06 02:03 AM
                              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/06 06:43 AM
                                The Hobbit is at 48 fpsJukka Larja2013/01/07 09:18 AM
                                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/07 05:21 PM
                                    The Hobbit is at 48 fpsJukka Larja2013/01/08 09:29 AM
                                      The Master 65mm/70mmRichard Cownie2013/01/08 12:52 PM
                                        The Master 65mm/70mmJukka Larja2013/01/11 02:07 PM
                                          The Master 65mm/70mmRichard Cownie2013/01/11 07:05 PM
                                            The Master 65mm/70mmJukka Larja2013/01/11 11:35 PM
                                              The Master 65mm/70mmDoug S2013/01/12 02:16 PM
                                                Pixar and 3DRichard Cownie2013/01/13 07:07 AM
                                            The Master 65mm/70mmDavid Hess2013/01/12 02:06 PM
                                            The Master 65mm/70mmMegol2013/01/16 01:02 PM
                                        The Master 65mm/70mmRakesh Malik2013/01/23 12:28 PM
                                    The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/09 10:18 PM
                                      The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/10 01:07 PM
                                        The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/10 03:50 PM
                                          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/10 06:05 PM
                                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/13 12:48 AM
                                              I don't care about workflowRichard Cownie2013/01/13 06:55 AM
                                                I don't care about workflowAnon2013/01/13 04:15 PM
                                                  I don't care about workflowRichard Cownie2013/01/13 08:02 PM
                                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRakesh Malik2013/01/23 01:38 PM
                              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRakesh Malik2013/01/23 12:15 PM
                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsJukka Larja2013/01/05 07:00 AM
                    Realism and fiction?Paul A. Clayton2013/01/05 09:42 AM
                      Realism and fiction?Jukka Larja2013/01/06 02:32 AM
                        Or the second factor?Paul A. Clayton2013/01/06 04:35 AM
                          Or the second factor?Jukka Larja2013/01/07 09:07 AM
                        further reading (was: Realism and fiction?)hobold2013/01/06 04:47 PM
                          Thanks. I'll probably check that out soon. (NT)Jukka Larja2013/01/07 09:13 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsrwessel2013/01/03 09:57 PM
            VR and latencyCarlie Coats2013/01/04 05:30 PM
              VR and latencyRicardo B2013/01/04 07:49 PM
                VR and latencyJoe2013/01/05 02:01 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsBernd Schmidt2013/01/08 03:42 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anongamer2013/01/03 05:01 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ricardo B2013/01/03 08:06 AM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Marco Salvi2013/01/02 10:31 AM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ungo2013/01/02 04:28 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Jukka Larja2013/01/05 07:13 AM
  Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayRichard Cownie2013/01/02 10:29 AM
  iPad GPU Clock Speedsltcommander.data2013/01/05 12:32 PM
    iPad GPU Clock SpeedsBrett2013/01/06 11:48 PM
      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDoug S2013/01/07 10:17 AM
      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDavid Kanter2013/01/09 01:48 PM
    iPad GPU Clock SpeedsUngo2013/01/07 04:26 PM
      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDavid Kanter2013/01/09 01:42 PM
  Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/06 05:35 AM
    Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayMegol2013/01/07 04:45 AM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/07 12:56 PM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/07 04:53 PM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displayanon2013/01/07 06:26 PM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayMaynard Handley2013/02/13 12:19 PM
  Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayVincent Diepeveen2013/01/06 03:29 PM
    Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/07 10:53 AM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/07 12:48 PM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayVincent Diepeveen2013/01/08 09:53 AM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/08 01:29 PM
          Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayLlew2013/01/26 12:06 PM
            Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDavid Kanter2013/01/26 01:43 PM
              Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayLlew2013/01/26 02:09 PM
            Wii U has three cores clocked at about 1.2 ghz or so. (NT)I.S.T.2013/01/29 07:37 PM
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