The benefits of (non-perceived) flicker

Article: Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Display
By: Anon (no.delete@this.email.com), January 9, 2013 10:07 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
dmsc (no.delete@this.more.spam) on January 7, 2013 7:36 pm wrote:
>...
> Real Motion:
>
> /
> /
> /
> /

BS, our eyes dont work at all like that, you are forgetting half of the 'system'..

> Motion on a strobed display:
>
> .
> .
> .
> .

Only if the backlight was on infinite brightness (and response time), again false 9and the same as above, our eyes would never see this anyway).

> Motion on an LCD:
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---

Also wrong, due to material persistence, how our eyes actually work, and the BIG elephant in the corner you seem to have completely forgotten, the motion blur present in many sources ;)

>
> See? The LCD shows a jagged motion, and this is clearly perceptible.

I can see that you dont understand what you are talking about, and have massivly over simplified a situation to arrive at the wrong conclusion, try a little actual research.

> Current LCDs have transition times in the order of a couple of ms, so
> all that you describe is non-existent.

Not unless you believe their wildly optimistic 'marketing specs', otherwise it varies massively with degree of transition and amount of setting you will accept.

> What modern 120/240 Hz LCDs do is interpolate the frames using the
> detected movement of the scene (for example, using motion-vectors
> from the coded stream), and generate intermediate frames, showing
> a more fluid motion.

You have swallowed that marketing line hook line and sinker, havnt you? :)
they DO do interpolation, however it does not work as you seem to believe.
if it did, it would have its own problems with both non-locally decoded sources (ie: most), sources that contain motion blur (movies, some computer game output), and any fine detail movement (you do know mpeg motion vectors are only block-accurate, right?)

> Remember that also all current LCDs do frame interpolation in the
> de-interlacer, needed to display the obsolete interlace material
> being broadcast.

aha, your complete lack of understanding now shows, interlacing is obsolete? you do not understand what it is and why it is used I can see..

>
> >
> > > On a non-flickering display, the only way to get CRT-equivalent moving images
> > > is to use a very high refresh rate, hundreds of frames per second.
> >
> > The problem isn't refresh rate, it's physical constraints on how fast LC material can respond to refresh.
>
> Not true. Current LCDs are much faster than old CRTs.

Not true, there were CRTS much faster than current LCDS (and slower), there are also a huge crange for what is a current LCD. generalising much?

>
> >
> > > Alternatively, you can force a panel to flicker by strobing the backlight or inserting black frames.
> > >
> > > The more expensive LCD TVs use both techniques. They motion interpolate to 120Hz
> > > or 240Hz, and flicker the backlight at 120/240Hz. The shorter the backlight
> > > pulses, the better the motion (and the dimmer the screen, of course).
> >
> > Do you have a citation for this? I've never heard of anyone doing that. It would be fairly
> > impractical with a fluorescent or white-LED backlight (both depend on phosphor to convert narrow
> > band light sources to full spectrum, and most phosphor materials can't switch that fast).
>
> Most good LCDs use LED lighting, already PWM controlled for brightness, to
> allow the big marketed contrast ratios. The TV simply synchronizes the PWM with
> the display frame rate (at 120 or 240 Hz).
>
> Daniel.

Most GOOD LCDs actually use CCFL (stress the good there), however plenty of OK LCDs use LED. synchronising to frame fate does NOT achieve what you think it does, except in a case where LCD material responded in a consistent and instantaneous manner, which of course it does not.

I am still waiting for a citation on this apparent use (and please no marketing statements..)
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TopicPosted ByDate
Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDavid Kanter2013/01/01 04:14 AM
  Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Mark Roulo2013/01/01 02:22 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?David Kanter2013/01/01 07:58 PM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/03 12:04 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Andy2013/01/03 04:05 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/06 02:10 AM
            Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EBFE2013/01/06 11:07 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Seni2013/01/01 09:17 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/02 04:00 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EduardoS2013/01/02 09:07 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/03 12:21 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?EduardoS2013/01/03 01:03 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ricardo B2013/01/02 11:01 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Michael S2013/01/03 01:35 AM
          Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Andy2013/01/03 04:10 AM
            Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Michael S2013/01/03 06:33 AM
              Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?rwessel2013/01/03 11:56 AM
                Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?rwessel2013/01/03 11:56 AM
                  Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double post (NT)rwessel2013/01/03 12:01 PM
                    /load/loud/ grrr... (NT)rwessel2013/01/03 12:02 PM
                    Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postDavid Kanter2013/01/10 10:07 AM
                      Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:33 PM
                        Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:35 PM
                          Oh, for crying out load, would you fix this stupid thing to make it a tiny bit harder to double postrwessel2013/01/10 09:40 PM
                          Me, too! :-)Mark Roulo2013/01/11 08:57 AM
              85 Hz CRT monitorsDoug S2013/01/04 02:12 PM
                85 Hz CRT monitorsAnon2013/01/06 02:16 AM
                  85 Hz CRT monitorsDoug S2013/01/06 12:40 PM
                    The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/07 01:43 PM
                      The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/07 02:59 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerPaul2013/01/07 05:40 PM
                      The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerUngo2013/01/07 03:57 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerDoug S2013/01/07 04:40 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/07 06:16 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/09 09:50 PM
                            The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerMax2013/01/10 06:18 AM
                              The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerSM2013/01/10 12:37 PM
                        The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerdmsc2013/01/07 07:36 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerEBFE2013/01/07 11:08 PM
                          The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerAnon2013/01/09 10:07 PM
                            The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerdmsc2013/01/10 04:41 PM
                              The benefits of (non-perceived) flickerUngo2013/01/11 05:20 PM
                    perception of flickerCarlie Coats2013/01/08 04:39 PM
                      perception of flickerDoug S2013/01/08 10:25 PM
                        perception of flickerAnon2013/01/09 10:09 PM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anongamer2013/01/03 04:31 AM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Richard Cownie2013/01/02 02:56 PM
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          Tablet vs. console GPUsRicardo B2013/01/02 04:50 PM
      Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Anon2013/01/03 12:13 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anon2013/01/03 12:54 AM
          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 07:02 AM
            Thanks for the interesting data point! (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/01/03 09:26 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRicardo B2013/01/03 11:17 AM
              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 11:55 AM
                The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 12:44 PM
                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRicardo B2013/01/03 01:42 PM
                    The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/03 02:31 PM
                      The Hobbit is at 48 fpsy2013/01/04 07:47 PM
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                          Exposure time traditionsy2013/01/05 09:59 PM
                            Exposure time traditionsanon2013/01/06 01:46 AM
                              Exposure time traditionsJukka Larja2013/01/07 08:52 AM
                            Exposure time traditionsdmsc2013/01/06 09:34 AM
                              Exposure time traditionsy2013/01/06 09:11 PM
                                Exposure time traditionsdmsc2013/01/07 07:42 PM
                                  Exposure time traditionsRichard Cownie2013/01/09 08:23 AM
                        The Hobbit is at 48 fpsMichael S2013/01/05 12:30 PM
                          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/05 03:45 PM
                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/06 02:03 AM
                              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/06 06:43 AM
                                The Hobbit is at 48 fpsJukka Larja2013/01/07 09:18 AM
                                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/07 05:21 PM
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                                              The Master 65mm/70mmDoug S2013/01/12 02:16 PM
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                                            The Master 65mm/70mmDavid Hess2013/01/12 02:06 PM
                                            The Master 65mm/70mmMegol2013/01/16 01:02 PM
                                        The Master 65mm/70mmRakesh Malik2013/01/23 12:28 PM
                                    The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/09 10:18 PM
                                      The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/10 01:07 PM
                                        The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/10 03:50 PM
                                          The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRichard Cownie2013/01/10 06:05 PM
                                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsAnon2013/01/13 12:48 AM
                                              I don't care about workflowRichard Cownie2013/01/13 06:55 AM
                                                I don't care about workflowAnon2013/01/13 04:15 PM
                                                  I don't care about workflowRichard Cownie2013/01/13 08:02 PM
                                            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRakesh Malik2013/01/23 01:38 PM
                              The Hobbit is at 48 fpsRakesh Malik2013/01/23 12:15 PM
                  The Hobbit is at 48 fpsJukka Larja2013/01/05 07:00 AM
                    Realism and fiction?Paul A. Clayton2013/01/05 09:42 AM
                      Realism and fiction?Jukka Larja2013/01/06 02:32 AM
                        Or the second factor?Paul A. Clayton2013/01/06 04:35 AM
                          Or the second factor?Jukka Larja2013/01/07 09:07 AM
                        further reading (was: Realism and fiction?)hobold2013/01/06 04:47 PM
                          Thanks. I'll probably check that out soon. (NT)Jukka Larja2013/01/07 09:13 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsrwessel2013/01/03 09:57 PM
            VR and latencyCarlie Coats2013/01/04 05:30 PM
              VR and latencyRicardo B2013/01/04 07:49 PM
                VR and latencyJoe2013/01/05 02:01 AM
            The Hobbit is at 48 fpsBernd Schmidt2013/01/08 03:42 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?anongamer2013/01/03 05:01 AM
        Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ricardo B2013/01/03 08:06 AM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Marco Salvi2013/01/02 10:31 AM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Ungo2013/01/02 04:28 PM
    Games at 2048 x 1536? Can you tell?Jukka Larja2013/01/05 07:13 AM
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      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDoug S2013/01/07 10:17 AM
      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDavid Kanter2013/01/09 01:48 PM
    iPad GPU Clock SpeedsUngo2013/01/07 04:26 PM
      iPad GPU Clock SpeedsDavid Kanter2013/01/09 01:42 PM
  Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/06 05:35 AM
    Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayMegol2013/01/07 04:45 AM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/07 12:56 PM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/07 04:53 PM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displayanon2013/01/07 06:26 PM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayMaynard Handley2013/02/13 12:19 PM
  Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayVincent Diepeveen2013/01/06 03:29 PM
    Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/07 10:53 AM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and Displaympx2013/01/07 12:48 PM
      Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayVincent Diepeveen2013/01/08 09:53 AM
        Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDoug S2013/01/08 01:29 PM
          Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayLlew2013/01/26 12:06 PM
            Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayDavid Kanter2013/01/26 01:43 PM
              Lessons in Technology and Innovation from the iPad 3 Graphics and DisplayLlew2013/01/26 02:09 PM
            Wii U has three cores clocked at about 1.2 ghz or so. (NT)I.S.T.2013/01/29 07:37 PM
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