Article Online: Microservers must Specialize to Survive

Article: Microservers must Specialize to Survive
By: Richard Cownie (tich.delete@this.pobox.com), February 1, 2013 9:11 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on February 1, 2013 9:36 am wrote:

> Well I believe it is you who do not understand. Their dominance is in manufacturing.
> They achieved that dominance in logic mfg with their x86 market, certainly. From there,
> they have been able to plunder much of the RISC and Unix server markets, which were
> absolutely not x86 dominated, and are actually notoriously adverse to change.

Well, not *that* adverse to change. The "RISC market" that Intel plundered from
1995 on didn't even exist in 1985. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it
certainly does happen over 5-10 years. And the increasing use of open-source
software has made it much easier to switch to a different ISA.

And for the relative importance of manufacturing vs design, you could look at
iAPX432 or i860 or Itanium, all products which had access to Intel's
manufacturing but either vanished without trace, or limped along without
ever establishing dominance.

> > Outside the desktop/laptop business - which is now shrinking - points a/b/c don't
> > apply. I don't think manufacturing excellence alone will allow Intel to dominate
> > other markets. You have a different opinion, evidently. We'll see.
>
> Neither did they apply in the server market.

Well, the "server market" is not uniform. The network effects are still going
to apply quite strongly to things like enterprise database software. But there's
a heck of a lot of "servers" running a Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP stack, and none of
that is particular tied to x86 in the way that WindowsNT was (and my recollection
is that Linux was also mostly for x86 back in 1995-2000 - and also didn't
match the quality of proprietary Unix'es back then - though obviously these
days it's fine on ARM and just about anything else).

> The key is that the volume of silicon, and the revenue, needs to be large enough
> that it suits Intel's manufacturing model. That is: high spending on fixed costs
> in order to reduce the variable costs. Server market has this property.

Not really. 10M server cpu's a year is nice - and maybe those are 250mm2 each,
compared to 50mm2 for a phone/tablet chip. But the phone/tablet chips sell
in the hundreds of millions - so that's a bigger driver of manufacturing volume.

Intel does well so far because they've got about 85M units of desktop/laptop to
drive their volume. But that is a) not as much silicon as phone/tablet chips
and b) shrinking. The shrinking of Intel's core market, and the growth of the
phone/tablet market - in which Intel is not (yet) a significant player, are the
important trends.
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Article Online: Microservers must Specialize to SurviveDavid Kanter2013/01/28 12:47 PM
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          Or compare to *desktop* ASPsMark Roulo2013/01/30 02:51 PM
            Or compare to *desktop* ASPsrwessel2013/01/30 03:07 PM
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            Or compare to *desktop* ASPsDoug S2013/01/30 08:50 PM
              Or compare to *desktop* ASPsrwessel2013/01/30 10:04 PM
              when thoughput matters, ultra-cheap Intel CPUs are not attractiveMichael S2013/01/31 01:59 AM
                when thoughput matters, ultra-cheap Intel CPUs are not attractiveDoug S2013/01/31 11:00 AM
                  when thoughput matters, ultra-cheap Intel CPUs are not attractiveMichael S2013/01/31 01:04 PM
                    Price/perf curve on intel.Jouni Osmala2013/01/31 10:28 PM
                    when thoughput matters, ultra-cheap Intel CPUs are not attractiveDoug S2013/02/01 03:45 PM
                      when thoughput matters, ultra-cheap Intel CPUs are not attractiverwessel2013/02/02 12:54 AM
              Or compare to *desktop* ASPsGabriele Svelto2013/01/31 02:33 AM
    Article Online: Microservers must Specialize to SurviveDoug S2013/01/29 09:36 AM
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            Way and line locking and associativityMark Roulo2013/01/30 02:37 PM
        Cache capacity benefits may have been done in simulationPatrick Chase2013/01/30 06:25 PM
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            Simulation has benefits but is SLOWPatrick Chase2013/01/30 09:36 PM
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      4x or 10x advantageS. Rao2013/02/03 09:32 PM
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            x86_64Michael S2013/02/05 01:51 AM
              x86_64Richard Cownie2013/02/05 03:33 AM
                x86_64EduardoS2013/02/05 03:41 AM
                  x86_64sJ2013/02/05 04:52 AM
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                x86_64someone2013/02/05 08:22 AM
                  x86_64Richard Cownie2013/02/05 08:44 AM
              "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 07:40 AM
                "Just recompile"Michael S2013/02/05 09:35 AM
                  "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 09:55 AM
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  x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/01 09:11 PM
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        x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/02 08:58 AM
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            x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureanon2013/02/03 01:58 PM
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                x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/03 02:39 PM
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                  x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/03 07:05 PM
                    x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureanon2013/02/03 08:52 PM
                      x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureDavid Kanter2013/02/03 10:23 PM
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                          U shape curve on performance...none2013/02/04 02:03 AM
                            U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 06:55 AM
                              U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 09:14 AM
                                U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 01:43 PM
                                  U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 03:06 PM
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                          U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 06:48 AM
                          U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 09:05 AM
                            It only works if ... ??Paul A. Clayton2013/02/04 11:20 AM
                              It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 11:48 AM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:02 PM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:08 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:15 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??anon2013/02/04 04:45 PM
                            I don't follow...Megol2013/02/05 09:16 AM
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              spec95 vs Spec2kbakaneko2013/02/04 03:48 AM
                correct linksMichael S2013/02/04 05:10 AM
              spec95 vs Spec2kPatrick Chase2013/02/04 10:47 AM
                spec95 vs Spec2kPatrick Chase2013/02/04 10:55 AM
                  spec95 vs Spec2kMichael S2013/02/04 12:39 PM
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                    spec95 vs Spec2knone2013/02/04 03:28 PM
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              Cortex A9 ROBnone2013/02/04 03:12 PM
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              ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/02/04 07:01 AM
                Similar to Thumb If-Then instructionPaul A. Clayton2013/02/04 07:43 AM
                  Similar to Thumb If-Then instructionEtienne2013/02/05 06:22 AM
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                  ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/02/05 05:57 AM
                    ARMv8 cleanlinessJouni Osmala2013/02/05 06:59 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/02/05 07:55 AM
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                        ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/15 09:45 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessMax2013/02/15 12:24 PM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/15 04:46 PM
                            ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/15 05:34 PM
                              ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 12:47 PM
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                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/19 01:20 PM
                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/19 09:13 AM
                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/19 01:10 PM
                                        ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/19 05:16 PM
                                          ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/19 05:41 PM
                                            ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 05:05 AM
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                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessnone2013/02/26 12:31 AM
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                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessDavid Hess2013/02/26 10:01 PM
                                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/27 10:22 AM
                                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessDavid Hess2013/03/01 12:58 PM
                                                      What is wrong with ARM?Paul A. Clayton2013/03/01 05:56 PM
                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/01 06:49 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/02 04:11 PM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/03 10:32 PM
                                                              What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/04 01:05 AM
                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/07 05:30 PM
                                                          Thank you very much!Paul A. Clayton2013/03/07 06:59 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/07 10:22 PM
                                                              Thank you very much!gallier22013/03/08 12:43 AM
                                                                Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 10:24 AM
                                                                  Thank you very much!Ungo2013/03/08 03:37 PM
                                                                    Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 07:47 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!Ricardo B2013/03/08 04:07 AM
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                                                                ARM lackings a historical accident?Ricardo B2013/03/08 02:33 PM
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                                                      ParityLinus Torvalds2013/03/03 02:06 PM
                                                        ParityAndi Kleen2013/03/03 06:15 PM
                                            Except the borrow bitMatthew D2013/02/25 11:07 PM
                                              Except the borrow bitrwessel2013/02/25 11:42 PM
                                              Except the borrow bitLinus Torvalds2013/02/26 10:13 AM
                                                are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/27 03:24 PM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Linus Torvalds2013/02/27 04:41 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 12:39 AM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?2013/03/01 09:23 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?EduardoS2013/02/27 10:07 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 03:58 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/27 11:29 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/27 11:32 PM
                                                    Bit numbering on big endian machinesKonrad Schwarz2013/02/28 12:49 AM
                                                      Bit numbering on big endian machinesrwessel2013/02/28 01:32 AM
                                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 04:54 AM
                                            ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 05:24 AM
                                              ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 06:36 AM
                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 12:06 PM
                                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 04:24 PM
                                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 04:55 PM
                                                    Utility of data loss exceptionsPaul A. Clayton2013/02/25 07:18 PM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsrwessel2013/02/26 12:00 AM
                                                        Excessively expensive mode changingPaul A. Clayton2013/02/26 05:15 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 01:55 AM
                                                        Utility of data loss exceptionsTREZA2013/02/26 03:53 AM
                                                          Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 04:37 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEtienne2013/02/26 05:01 AM
                                            1b vs. 4b not a huge difference?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/25 08:57 AM
                                  Possible benefit of multi-bit CCPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 07:09 AM
                                ARMv8 cleanlinessrwessel2013/02/17 11:01 PM
                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/18 04:33 PM
                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/18 07:18 PM
                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 05:19 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/15 03:21 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanliness2013/02/17 09:49 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 10:54 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 10:58 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessnone2013/02/17 03:36 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 10:59 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 11:30 AM
                            and-compare and or-comparePaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 04:28 PM
                              early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 01:05 AM
                                My ignorance about compilers is vasterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/18 12:30 PM
                                early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 04:12 PM
                              early branch resolution?EBFE2013/02/19 12:03 AM
                                Early resolution: some but limited potentialPaul A. Clayton2013/02/19 04:52 PM
                                  Early resolution: some but limited potentialhobold2013/02/20 01:02 PM
                                    PPC750 was an inspirationPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 07:09 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 12:53 PM
                            ARMv8 cleanlinessExophase2013/02/17 03:49 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 11:07 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessbakaneko2013/02/17 11:43 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessJouni Osmala2013/02/17 12:10 PM
                          -1 comparison true seems betterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 05:07 PM
                  ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/07/17 01:58 AM
      ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/04 11:13 PM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?anon2013/02/04 11:38 PM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/05 12:25 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 01:13 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 12:51 AM
          I think that was debunked alreadyDavid Kanter2013/02/05 06:36 PM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 01:37 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/06 02:43 AM
            Marketing to PHBs?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/06 05:40 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 06:08 AM
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