ARMv8 cleanliness

Article: Microservers must Specialize to Survive
By: Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com), February 25, 2013 5:24 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
EduardoS (no.delete@this.spam.com) on February 25, 2013 1:06 pm wrote:
> Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on February 25, 2013 7:36 am wrote:
> > Well it is useful for add in the same way it is useful for any other
> > operation. Programmers just tend to compare with zero a lot.
>
> I almost never compare the result of an ADD with zero, by the semantics
> of the operation this isnt very common or meaningful.

Well then you'll be surprised to hear that there are more adds/subs followed by a beq/bne than all logical operations combined...

> > Note if you really believe in condition codes, even loads should set the Z flag since ldr;
> > cmp #0; beq/bne is extremely common (of course I prefer Thumb-2 cbz/cbnz instead).
>
> That's true.
>
> > For those you'd need additional instructions, just like add with carry.
>
> So...
> 1) Add and set carry;
> 2) Add and set overflow;
> 3) Add with carry and set carry;
> 4) Sub and set borrow;
> 5) Sub and set overflow;
> 6) Sub with borrow and set borrow;
>
> Quite a lot opcode space, no?

You might not need (1) or (3). However ALU instructions don't take much opcode space. If encoding space were a concern, you wouldn't have mvn, orn, teq, cmn or tst on ARM for example (these are rarely used).

> > For floating point you always use a compare first.
>
> No, when you care about not getting meaningless results you may check wheter each operation didn't
> resulted in overflow or NaN, it is not very pratical to compare the output of each result.

You're talking about the cumulative exception flags, right? Those are completely separate and not directly usable by branches like a normal condition code. ARM has around 7 such flags. They are pretty much completely useless so remain unused. With FP you only need to check the final result to check whether it is meaningless or not.

> > As long as you stay with C/C++ then you would not see overflow checks even if they
> > were used in the source. For Java/C# things are different of course, but even then
> > the number of overflow checks is small compared to the number of additions.
>
> It is not so much about the language but about the target market, when processing transactions
> it is ok if 2 billion + 3 billion = 5 billion, it is not ok if it results in an overflow exception,
> but at least your results still consistent, the transaction fail, the application don't, and it
> is completly inacceptable if the result is 705,032,704, that's what I am saying, some apps check
> for overflow way too often, it is a requirement for them, C/C++ just make it harder.

The point is that the overflow check will be different in different languages. If you write it explicitly in C then it doesn't matter if the hardware doesn't support a branch on overflow operation - as it won't be used anyway (yes some cases could be peepholed, but typical programmers write such checks in the most horrible and inefficient way that that is unlikely in general unfortunately).

> Finally, my opinion about flags is, if you are going to use them, use
> a full set of them, a single flag doesn't bring so much benefits.

If going all-out on flags, what about a flag for all-ones, top 16/24-bits zero (or same-sign as bit 15/23), even/odd, parity etc. Half/quarter carry? Just where do you stop?

Wilco
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              "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 08:40 AM
                "Just recompile"Michael S2013/02/05 10:35 AM
                  "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 10:55 AM
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                          U shape curve on performance...none2013/02/04 03:03 AM
                            U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 07:55 AM
                              U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 10:14 AM
                                U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 02:43 PM
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                          U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 07:48 AM
                          U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 10:05 AM
                            It only works if ... ??Paul A. Clayton2013/02/04 12:20 PM
                              It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:48 PM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 01:02 PM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 01:08 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 01:15 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??anon2013/02/04 05:45 PM
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              spec95 vs Spec2kbakaneko2013/02/04 04:48 AM
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                      ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/02/05 08:55 AM
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                        ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/15 10:45 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessMax2013/02/15 01:24 PM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/15 05:46 PM
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                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/19 02:20 PM
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                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/19 02:10 PM
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                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/01 07:49 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/02 05:11 PM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/03 11:32 PM
                                                              What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/04 02:05 AM
                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/07 06:30 PM
                                                          Thank you very much!Paul A. Clayton2013/03/07 07:59 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/07 11:22 PM
                                                              Thank you very much!gallier22013/03/08 01:43 AM
                                                                Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 11:24 AM
                                                                  Thank you very much!Ungo2013/03/08 04:37 PM
                                                                    Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 08:47 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!Ricardo B2013/03/08 05:07 AM
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                                                                ARM lackings a historical accident?Ricardo B2013/03/08 03:33 PM
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                                                            What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/08 12:37 PM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?dmsc2013/03/12 03:47 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?dmsc2013/03/12 03:43 PM
                                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessMichael S2013/03/02 05:06 PM
                                                    ParityAndi Kleen2013/03/03 01:47 PM
                                                      ParityLinus Torvalds2013/03/03 03:06 PM
                                                        ParityAndi Kleen2013/03/03 07:15 PM
                                            Except the borrow bitMatthew D2013/02/26 12:07 AM
                                              Except the borrow bitrwessel2013/02/26 12:42 AM
                                              Except the borrow bitLinus Torvalds2013/02/26 11:13 AM
                                                are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/27 04:24 PM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Linus Torvalds2013/02/27 05:41 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 01:39 AM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?2013/03/01 10:23 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?EduardoS2013/02/27 11:07 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 04:58 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/28 12:29 AM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/28 12:32 AM
                                                    Bit numbering on big endian machinesKonrad Schwarz2013/02/28 01:49 AM
                                                      Bit numbering on big endian machinesrwessel2013/02/28 02:32 AM
                                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 05:54 AM
                                            ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 06:24 AM
                                              ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 07:36 AM
                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 01:06 PM
                                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 05:24 PM
                                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 05:55 PM
                                                    Utility of data loss exceptionsPaul A. Clayton2013/02/25 08:18 PM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsrwessel2013/02/26 01:00 AM
                                                        Excessively expensive mode changingPaul A. Clayton2013/02/26 06:15 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 02:55 AM
                                                        Utility of data loss exceptionsTREZA2013/02/26 04:53 AM
                                                          Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 05:37 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEtienne2013/02/26 06:01 AM
                                            1b vs. 4b not a huge difference?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/25 09:57 AM
                                  Possible benefit of multi-bit CCPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 08:09 AM
                                ARMv8 cleanlinessrwessel2013/02/18 12:01 AM
                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/18 05:33 PM
                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/18 08:18 PM
                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 06:19 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/15 04:21 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanliness2013/02/17 10:49 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 11:54 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 11:58 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessnone2013/02/17 04:36 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 11:59 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 12:30 PM
                            and-compare and or-comparePaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 05:28 PM
                              early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 02:05 AM
                                My ignorance about compilers is vasterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/18 01:30 PM
                                early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 05:12 PM
                              early branch resolution?EBFE2013/02/19 01:03 AM
                                Early resolution: some but limited potentialPaul A. Clayton2013/02/19 05:52 PM
                                  Early resolution: some but limited potentialhobold2013/02/20 02:02 PM
                                    PPC750 was an inspirationPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 08:09 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 01:53 PM
                            ARMv8 cleanlinessExophase2013/02/17 04:49 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 12:07 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessbakaneko2013/02/17 12:43 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessJouni Osmala2013/02/17 01:10 PM
                          -1 comparison true seems betterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 06:07 PM
                  ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/07/17 02:58 AM
      ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/05 12:13 AM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?anon2013/02/05 12:38 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/05 01:25 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 02:13 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 01:51 AM
          I think that was debunked alreadyDavid Kanter2013/02/05 07:36 PM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 02:37 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/06 03:43 AM
            Marketing to PHBs?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/06 06:40 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 07:08 AM
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