What is wrong with ARM?

Article: Microservers must Specialize to Survive
By: dmsc (no.delete@this.more.spam), March 12, 2013 2:43 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Hi,

David Hess (davidwhess.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 7, 2013 6:30 pm wrote:
> Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 1, 2013 6:56 pm wrote:
> > David Hess (davidwhess.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 1, 2013 1:58 pm wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > I still live in 8 and 16 bit land. The more I play with ARM the more annoyed
> > > I get with it but not only because of the instruction set.
> >
> > What makes ARM annoying from the perspective one used to developing for 16-bit systems? Are
> > the "not only" reasons related to the ecosystem (e.g., implementers not providing microcontroller
> > features appropriate to specific uses or long-term supply guarantees) or to ARM, Ltd. (perhaps
> > awkward licensing restrictions or aggressive patent litigation??) or something else?
> >
> > I am curious about the ISA and the "not only" reasons as I was under the impression that the
> > Cortex M series was making progress in meeting requirements for 16-bit microcontrollers (at the
> > ISA level--code density, bit manipulation, fast interrupts, etc.--and the implementation level--e.g.,
> > decent peripheral selection [though perhaps not yet good support for variable voltage??]); but
> > I am extremely ignorant in this and would appreciate a little bit of education.
>
> I thought your question deserved a better answer so I spent some time going back over
> my notes and currently available ARM microcontrollers including the new Cortex designs
> that would be suitable. Here are some of my complaints in no particular order:
>
> 1. I do not like the packaging. DIP and SO are fine, PLCC (J-lead) would be ideal, and smaller quad
> flat packs with larger pin spacing might be acceptable. Only the last include enough memory to be an
> upgrade. BGAs and similar under fill packages are an inspection and design diagnostic nightmare.
>
> 2. Large amounts of memory are only available in packages I have no interest in using.
> As it is, in the right packages, the 8 bit microcontrollers effectively have just as
> much or *more* memory than the ARM microcontrollers. A microcontroller with direct support
> for an asynchronous SRAM interface would be fun even if it limited performance.
>
> 3. The ARM microcontrollers are significantly more expensive, like 3
> to 4 times, for less performance (see 4), functionality, and memory.

I have the exact opposite experience.

Cortex microcontrollers are cheaper, with more memory (specially flash) and
in better packages than 8 bitters.

For example, the cheapest microcontroller with >64kB RAM, >128kB flash and
no BGA package, on qty 100 at digykey is:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ATSAM3S8BA-AU/ATSAM3S8BA-AU-ND/3128650

64MHz, cortex M3, 64kB RAM, 512kB flash, 64-TQFP package, at US$4.79.

The cheaper non ARM microcontroller is:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PIC24FJ128GB206-I%2FPT/PIC24FJ128GB206-I%2FPT-ND/2352060

32MHz, PIC24 (16bit), 96kB RAM, 128kB flash, 64-TQFP, at US$4.91.

Both are easy to solder packages, the PIC have more RAM but much less
flash and half the speed.

>
> 4. For code that can take advantage of 32 bit operations and DSP, ARM would be faster but working with 8 bit
> data or even worse, bit oriented I/O can be slower. The bit oriented I/O is impacted by the peripheral I/O
> problem I mentioned in my other post which as far as I could tell still exists in the newer Cortex designs.

Nower cortex has bit-banged I/O memory areas that allow to toggle pins
at > 30MHz. Much faster than any 8-bitter.

Daniel.
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                  x86_64Richard Cownie2013/02/05 08:44 AM
              "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 07:40 AM
                "Just recompile"Michael S2013/02/05 09:35 AM
                  "Just recompile"Mark Roulo2013/02/05 09:55 AM
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        x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/02 08:58 AM
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            x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureanon2013/02/03 01:58 PM
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                x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureanon2013/02/03 05:08 PM
                  x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitecturePatrick Chase2013/02/03 07:05 PM
                    x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureanon2013/02/03 08:52 PM
                      x86 penalty depends on performance and microarchitectureDavid Kanter2013/02/03 10:23 PM
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                          U shape curve on performance...none2013/02/04 02:03 AM
                            U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 06:55 AM
                              U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 09:14 AM
                                U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 01:43 PM
                                  U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 03:06 PM
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                          U shape curve on performance...Michael S2013/02/04 06:48 AM
                          U shape curve on performance...Patrick Chase2013/02/04 09:05 AM
                            It only works if ... ??Paul A. Clayton2013/02/04 11:20 AM
                              It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 11:48 AM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:02 PM
                                It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:08 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??Patrick Chase2013/02/04 12:15 PM
                                  It only works if ... ??anon2013/02/04 04:45 PM
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              spec95 vs Spec2kbakaneko2013/02/04 03:48 AM
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                  Cortex A9 ROBnone2013/02/04 03:58 PM
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                      ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/02/05 07:55 AM
              ARMv8 cleanlinessMaynard Handley2013/02/13 02:53 PM
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                        ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/15 09:45 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessMax2013/02/15 12:24 PM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/15 04:46 PM
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                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/19 01:20 PM
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                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessnone2013/02/26 12:31 AM
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                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessDavid Hess2013/02/26 10:01 PM
                                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/27 10:22 AM
                                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessDavid Hess2013/03/01 12:58 PM
                                                      What is wrong with ARM?Paul A. Clayton2013/03/01 05:56 PM
                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/01 06:49 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/02 04:11 PM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/03 10:32 PM
                                                              What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/04 01:05 AM
                                                        What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/07 05:30 PM
                                                          Thank you very much!Paul A. Clayton2013/03/07 06:59 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/07 10:22 PM
                                                              Thank you very much!gallier22013/03/08 12:43 AM
                                                                Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 10:24 AM
                                                                  Thank you very much!Ungo2013/03/08 03:37 PM
                                                                    Thank you very much!David Hess2013/03/08 07:47 PM
                                                            Thank you very much!Ricardo B2013/03/08 04:07 AM
                                                              ARM lackings a historical accident?Paul A. Clayton2013/03/08 07:54 AM
                                                                ARM lackings a historical accident?Ricardo B2013/03/08 02:33 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?Michael S2013/03/08 05:25 AM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?David Hess2013/03/08 11:37 AM
                                                            What is wrong with ARM?dmsc2013/03/12 02:47 PM
                                                          What is wrong with ARM?dmsc2013/03/12 02:43 PM
                                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessMichael S2013/03/02 04:06 PM
                                                    ParityAndi Kleen2013/03/03 12:47 PM
                                                      ParityLinus Torvalds2013/03/03 02:06 PM
                                                        ParityAndi Kleen2013/03/03 06:15 PM
                                            Except the borrow bitMatthew D2013/02/25 11:07 PM
                                              Except the borrow bitrwessel2013/02/25 11:42 PM
                                              Except the borrow bitLinus Torvalds2013/02/26 10:13 AM
                                                are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/27 03:24 PM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Linus Torvalds2013/02/27 04:41 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 12:39 AM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?2013/03/01 09:23 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?EduardoS2013/02/27 10:07 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?Michael S2013/02/28 03:58 AM
                                                  are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/27 11:29 PM
                                                    are ZSCO flags really fundamental?rwessel2013/02/27 11:32 PM
                                                    Bit numbering on big endian machinesKonrad Schwarz2013/02/28 12:49 AM
                                                      Bit numbering on big endian machinesrwessel2013/02/28 01:32 AM
                                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 04:54 AM
                                            ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 05:24 AM
                                              ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 06:36 AM
                                                ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 12:06 PM
                                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 04:24 PM
                                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/25 04:55 PM
                                                    Utility of data loss exceptionsPaul A. Clayton2013/02/25 07:18 PM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsrwessel2013/02/26 12:00 AM
                                                        Excessively expensive mode changingPaul A. Clayton2013/02/26 05:15 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 01:55 AM
                                                        Utility of data loss exceptionsTREZA2013/02/26 03:53 AM
                                                          Utility of data loss exceptionsEduardoS2013/02/26 04:37 AM
                                                      Utility of data loss exceptionsEtienne2013/02/26 05:01 AM
                                            1b vs. 4b not a huge difference?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/25 08:57 AM
                                  Possible benefit of multi-bit CCPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 07:09 AM
                                ARMv8 cleanlinessrwessel2013/02/17 11:01 PM
                                  ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/18 04:33 PM
                                    ARMv8 cleanlinessEduardoS2013/02/18 07:18 PM
                                      ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/25 05:19 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/15 03:21 AM
                      ARMv8 cleanliness2013/02/17 09:49 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 10:54 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessLinus Torvalds2013/02/17 10:58 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessnone2013/02/17 03:36 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 10:59 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 11:30 AM
                            and-compare and or-comparePaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 04:28 PM
                              early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 01:05 AM
                                My ignorance about compilers is vasterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/18 12:30 PM
                                early branch resolutionanon2013/02/18 04:12 PM
                              early branch resolution?EBFE2013/02/19 12:03 AM
                                Early resolution: some but limited potentialPaul A. Clayton2013/02/19 04:52 PM
                                  Early resolution: some but limited potentialhobold2013/02/20 01:02 PM
                                    PPC750 was an inspirationPaul A. Clayton2013/02/23 07:09 AM
                          ARMv8 cleanlinessTREZA2013/02/17 12:53 PM
                            ARMv8 cleanlinessExophase2013/02/17 03:49 PM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessWilco2013/02/17 11:07 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessbakaneko2013/02/17 11:43 AM
                        ARMv8 cleanlinessJouni Osmala2013/02/17 12:10 PM
                          -1 comparison true seems betterPaul A. Clayton2013/02/17 05:07 PM
                  ARMv8 cleanlinessEtienne2013/07/17 01:58 AM
      ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/04 11:13 PM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?anon2013/02/04 11:38 PM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Per Hesselgren2013/02/05 12:25 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 01:13 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/05 12:51 AM
          I think that was debunked alreadyDavid Kanter2013/02/05 06:36 PM
        ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 01:37 AM
          ARM server benchmark- why Apache?Michael S2013/02/06 02:43 AM
            Marketing to PHBs?Paul A. Clayton2013/02/06 05:40 AM
            ARM server benchmark- why Apache?bakaneko2013/02/06 06:08 AM
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