Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!

By: anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com), July 11, 2013 2:50 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Klimax (danklima.delete@this.gmail.com) on July 10, 2013 11:30 pm wrote:
> anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on July 10, 2013 10:29 pm wrote:
> > Klimax (danklima.delete@this.gmail.com) on July 10, 2013 10:03 pm wrote:
> > > Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on July 10, 2013 7:59 pm wrote:
> > > > none (none.delete@this.none.com) on July 10, 2013 11:46 am wrote:
> > > > > none (none.delete@this.none.com) on June 9, 2013 3:11 pm wrote:
> > > > > > tarlinian (tarlinian.delete@this.gmail.com) on June 9, 2013 2:00 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > Kevin G (kevin.delete@this.cubitdesigns.com) on June 8, 2013 2:18 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > > John (Jngu14.delete@this.gmail.com) on June 8, 2013 6:28 am wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Jason (oxkct.delete@this.7tags.com) on June 7, 2013 1:56 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I guess this explains why Samsung went with Intel over their own Exynos on the Galaxy
> > > > > > > > > > Tab. Look at how the Lenovo K800 (Atom) compared to Galaxy S4 (Exynos/SnapDragon) :
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A bit of Google-fu points toward any relevant information being behind a paywall at
> > > > > > > > ABI Research. Everywhere else seems to be parroting the same Business Wire story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If anyone's interested, the ABI post acting as advertising for this work can
> > > > > > > be found here. It has some interesting comment I'm not really sure why they
> > > > > > > talk about current draw instead of power...it's a rather odd story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I bet most of their benchmarks are from AnTuTu which seems to be the only CPU benchmark favoring Intel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that indeed AnTuTu has a heavy bias towards Intel and that Abi Research used it:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&itc=eetimes_sitedefault&doc_id=1318857
> > > >
> > > > And Exophase figured out how Intel cheated AnTuTu.
> > > >
> > > > Wilco
> > >
> > > Proper optimization. If a loop or similar construct can be replaced, then problem is in benchmark
> > > and its code and not in compiler. Same type of optimization as code elimination, because it
> > > will never execute or is never used. Or memcpy/memset, which are often inlined for smaller
> > > variable/array. (Interestingly, similar problems but the other way can be found in Geekbench
> > > and likely other benchmarks penalizing Atom. See later post in your own link.)
> > >
> > > Intel can't be held responsible that ARM's compilers suck at optimizations.
> >
> > Totally incorrect.
> >
> > Firstly, they used GCC, not ARM's compiler.
> >
> > Secondly, they used specific optimization for the x86 core, and
> > a generic optimization (and not even a very good one) for ARM.
> >
> > Finally, the use of ICC is not common. It is very true that in the real world, you
> > cannot separate the CPU from the compiler. But if you go by the real world, you
> > also have to accept that ICC is probably not the compiler that will be used.
> >
> > It's pretty obvious that the numbers being generated were way too optimistic.
> > Sadly, the people paying for the test should really have picked up on this and
> > got them to improve their methodology and make expectations more realistic.
> >
> > The fact they did not allow ARM on an equal footing I hope is not the same
> > old story of over promising and under delivering from Atom cores.
> >
>
> GCC is not known to be good optimization compiler. Maybe ARM camp should help GCC.
> As for ICC, it is expensive, but not for students (Intel C++ Studio
> XE is free for us) and some open source projects support it.

None of that is correct. As Wilco said, GCC isn't too bad, and it is being improved.

At first glance, GCC looks pretty horrible, but look closer.

http://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2013q1/cpu2006-20130204-25469.html
http://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2013q1/cpu2006-20130204-25471.html

Now if you look at the base results, GCC is within about 5% of the IBM compiler on POWER7+. In some of the benchmarks GCC is significantly faster.

As for ICC not being expensive, that's not the point. The issue is simply the reality of what is being used. Intel even had to implement ARM->x86 JIT because of the gap between theory and reality.

It's not that GCC is a bad compiler so much (although it's probably at a small disadvantage compared to Intel or ARM compilers). It is that the compiler was changed to non standard, and options highly tuned. Whereas base options used for GCC.

>
> Anyway, as I said if a loop is written as such that good optimizing compiler can replace it,
> then benchmark is broken. (And I suspect it is only matter of time when GCC will gain that)

I don't think that's necessarily completely true. If the transforms are realistic, then fine. But as you see in the analysis, GCC is using a generic target and not using NEON instructions or pipeline specific tuning. There is also suggestion that the transformation that Intel's compiler made is not generic but a special-cased one to help the benchmark. In that case, GCC may never gain such transformation because they don't tend to do such special case optimization, and doing it generically may *never* become a worthwhile cost/benefit (if the optimization is expensive to do).

>
> Iin the end, it's story about GCC vs. ICC, which is known for
> a long time to be very unequal and badly written benchmark.
>
> So the only incorrect thing was about ARM compiler and rest stands.

If, by "stands", you mean "is utterly useless as any measure of comparison", then I agree.

But we already knew that didn't we? It was obvious, as soon as I simply read the headlines, that the fantastical claims of Intel's core were too good to be true.
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TopicPosted ByDate
ARM at Computexanon2013/06/03 08:54 AM
  ARM at ComputexExophase2013/06/03 09:31 AM
    ARM at ComputexWilco2013/06/03 10:52 AM
      ARM at ComputexExophase2013/06/03 12:02 PM
        ARM at Computexnone2013/06/03 01:28 PM
          ARM at ComputexAlberto2013/06/04 10:41 AM
            ARM at Computexanon2013/06/04 01:36 PM
              ARM at ComputexWilco2013/06/04 03:56 PM
                ARM at ComputexDavid Kanter2013/06/04 04:51 PM
                  ARM at ComputexNobodyatAll2013/06/04 05:53 PM
                  ARM at Computexanon2013/06/04 06:53 PM
        ARM at ComputexWilco2013/06/03 01:47 PM
    ARM at Computexanon2013/06/04 04:03 AM
      ARM at ComputexDavid Kanter2013/06/04 08:16 AM
      ARM at ComputexExophase2013/06/04 10:36 AM
        ARM at ComputexWilco2013/06/04 04:09 PM
          ARM at ComputexNobodyatAll2013/06/04 04:23 PM
          ARM at ComputexDavid Kanter2013/06/04 05:00 PM
            ARM at Computexnone2013/06/05 05:26 AM
              ARM at Computexanon2013/06/05 07:19 AM
              ARM at Computexaaron spink2013/06/05 03:04 PM
                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Jason2013/06/07 01:56 PM
                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!John2013/06/08 06:28 AM
                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Kevin G2013/06/08 02:18 PM
                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!David Kanter2013/06/08 08:43 PM
                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!tarlinian2013/06/09 02:00 PM
                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/06/09 03:11 PM
                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/10 11:46 AM
                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/10 07:59 PM
                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/10 10:03 PM
                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/10 10:29 PM
                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/10 11:30 PM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/11 01:04 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 03:10 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/11 04:10 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/11 04:43 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Steve2013/07/14 08:10 PM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/14 10:55 PM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/15 02:03 AM
                                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/16 01:07 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/16 06:25 AM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/16 06:34 AM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Exophase2013/07/16 10:34 AM
                                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/18 02:24 PM
                                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/18 03:26 PM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/11 02:50 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 11:25 PM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/11 11:45 PM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/12 12:10 AM
                                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/12 01:52 AM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Gabriele Svelto2013/07/11 04:20 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 11:51 PM
                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/11 12:02 AM
                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 12:28 AM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 01:49 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 03:00 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 03:02 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 04:44 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Michael S2013/07/11 05:33 AM
                                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 05:58 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 05:59 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/11 07:40 AM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Michael S2013/07/11 08:34 AM
                                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 08:50 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Michael S2013/07/11 09:02 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 10:11 PM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Michael S2013/07/11 04:12 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 04:51 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/11 05:03 AM
                                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 05:12 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/11 07:26 AM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!none2013/07/11 08:29 AM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/12 04:08 AM
                                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Michael S2013/07/12 04:25 AM
                                              Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Klimax2013/07/11 11:55 PM
                                                Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Megol2013/07/13 07:20 AM
                                    Java/Dalvik benchmarksbakaneko2013/07/11 02:26 AM
                                  Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Linus Torvalds2013/07/11 10:57 AM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Linus Torvalds2013/07/11 11:20 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Ian Ameline2013/07/11 03:20 PM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Sylvain Collange2013/07/12 02:29 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Wilco2013/07/12 03:51 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Sylvain Collange2013/07/12 06:00 AM
                                      Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/12 03:28 AM
                                        Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Linus Torvalds2013/07/12 09:11 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/12 10:12 AM
                                          Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!2013/07/12 10:48 AM
                                            Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!Linus Torvalds2013/07/12 11:14 AM
                                              JIT2013/07/13 05:50 AM
                                                How'd you get this flower symbol as your user name ?anon2013/07/13 09:20 AM
                                                  How'd you get this flower symbol as your user name ?Doug S Ꭳ❂〄☢⚓♜☎♬⚄☠2013/07/13 10:12 AM
                                                JITx2013/07/15 06:43 AM
                                    Not reallyAnon2013/07/11 11:21 AM
                                    consistency, pleaseMichael S2013/07/11 11:22 AM
                                      consistency, pleaseLinus Torvalds2013/07/11 11:52 AM
                                        consistency, pleaseMichael S2013/07/11 02:43 PM
                                          consistency, pleaseLinus Torvalds2013/07/11 03:12 PM
                                            consistency, pleaseMark Roulo2013/07/11 03:54 PM
                                              the discussion was about absence of AVX in Silvermont (NT)Michael S2013/07/11 03:59 PM
                                                the discussion was about absence of AVX in SilvermontMark Roulo2013/07/11 04:19 PM
                                                  the discussion was about absence of AVX in SilvermontLinus Torvalds2013/07/12 09:16 AM
                                                    Thank youMark Roulo2013/07/12 09:58 AM
                                                    the discussion was about absence of AVX in Silvermontanon2013/07/12 10:10 AM
                                                      Not really (again)Anon2013/07/12 10:26 AM
                                                        Not really (again)anon2013/07/12 05:40 PM
                                                    the discussion was about absence of AVX in SilvermontLinus Torvalds2013/07/12 10:31 AM
                                                      you are wrong at about 100% of you saidMichael S2013/07/13 11:22 AM
                                                        you are wrong at about 100% of you saidLinus Torvalds2013/07/13 12:08 PM
                                                          you are wrong at about 100% of you saidMichael S2013/07/13 01:13 PM
                                                            you are wrong at about 100% of you saidLinus Torvalds2013/07/13 02:11 PM
                                                            you are wrong at about 100% of you saidvvid2013/07/13 03:20 PM
                                                              you are wrong at about 100% of you saidMichael S2013/07/14 01:38 AM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!anon2013/07/11 06:41 PM
                                    Saltwell Outperforming A15...With Less Power!!!bakaneko2013/07/12 03:22 AM
                  Round 2: Baytrail benchmark (yes Antutu!) crushes Snapdragon 800.sammy2013/07/12 11:28 AM
                    Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for AtomWilco2013/07/12 11:59 AM
                      Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for AtomSteve2013/07/14 08:16 PM
                        Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for AtomKlimax2013/07/14 10:59 PM
                        Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for AtomDavid Kanter2013/07/15 01:57 PM
                          Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/15 03:43 PM
                            Intel is cheating AnTuTubakaneko2013/07/15 07:47 PM
                              Intel is cheating AnTuTuLinus Torvalds2013/07/15 08:45 PM
                                Intel is cheating AnTuTubakaneko2013/07/16 02:42 AM
                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/16 03:47 AM
                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTubakaneko2013/07/16 05:50 AM
                                      Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/17 03:33 PM
                                        Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/17 11:29 PM
                                          Intel is cheating AnTuTunone2013/07/17 11:35 PM
                                            Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/18 01:41 AM
                                              Intel is cheating AnTuTuanon2013/07/18 02:10 AM
                                                Intel is cheating AnTuTuMichael S2013/07/18 03:39 AM
                                                Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/18 04:07 AM
                                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTunone2013/07/18 04:15 AM
                                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/18 05:18 AM
                                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTuMichael S2013/07/18 06:44 AM
                                                      Intel is cheating AnTuTunone2013/07/18 07:47 AM
                                                        strict aliasingMichael S2013/07/18 08:10 AM
                                                          strict aliasing rules have existed since C89 (NT)Ricardo B2013/07/18 05:28 PM
                                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/18 11:30 AM
                                                Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/18 11:39 AM
                                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTuanon2013/07/18 12:05 PM
                                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/20 12:05 AM
                                                      Intel is cheating AnTuTunone2013/07/20 02:50 AM
                                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTunone2013/07/18 12:38 PM
                                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTuKlimax2013/07/19 11:57 PM
                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTuLinus Torvalds2013/07/16 12:32 PM
                                Intel is cheating AnTuTu2013/07/16 03:16 AM
                                  Intel is cheating AnTuTubakaneko2013/07/16 04:55 AM
                                    Intel is cheating AnTuTuWilco2013/07/17 03:46 PM
                                      Intel is cheating AnTuTubakaneko2013/07/18 02:05 PM
                                      Intel is cheating AnTuTuDavid Kanter2013/07/19 02:31 AM
                          Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for Atomanon2013/07/15 04:43 PM
                            Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for Atomnone2013/07/16 12:15 AM
                          Round 2: AnTuTu scores drop dramatically for AtomGroo2013/07/16 07:35 AM
        ARM at Computexanon2013/06/04 10:43 PM
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