future of eDRAM

By: anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com), September 25, 2013 5:39 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
bakaneko (nyan.delete@this.hyan.wan) on September 25, 2013 11:46 am wrote:
> anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on September 25, 2013 9:24 am wrote:
> > bakaneko (nyan.delete@this.hyan.wan) on September 25, 2013 9:00 am wrote:
> > > anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on September 25, 2013 7:43 am wrote:
> > > > bakaneko (nyan.delete@this.hyan.wan) on September 25, 2013 6:58 am wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > But how good is eDRAM? It increases
> > > > > complexity, but doesn't scale up or
> > > > > down.
> > > >
> > > > http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AVJnvkbUQEU/UMd7j5NupdI/AAAAAAAAAUY/k31deuzDaMQ/s1600/Fig+5.png
> > >
> > > There is more than one way to scale.
> >
> > I just gave you a link that shows you it scales. Then there is further
> > reports (e.g., at IEDM) of roadmap to 3d stacking technologies.
>
> You gave me a link that shows that it scales
> with node shrinks.

Yes. It scales.

>
> You didn't give me a link that shows me
> how useful it will be if people try to adopt
> it into all the processes which come with
> real products.

With that link, I was rebutting your assertion that it does not scale. *Not* trying to support a claim that you just dreamed up then. Nice attempt at a strawman, though.

>
> Which is the kind of scaling that matters.

Sounds like marketing mumbo jumbo to me.

eDRAM scales (at least for several more generations), and that's the end of it.

Would it be suitable for phones as a replacement for main memory? This is what is being discussed here.

>
> Just because it is feasible doesn't make it
> useful. Same for die stacking.
>
> > > How
> > > well does eDRAM scale between SRAM and
> > > normal DRAM? Would you replace all your
> > > SRAM with eDRAM? All your DRAM with eDRAM?
> >
> > This is what is being discussed.
>
> But it is only one application of eDRAM.

By amazing coincidence, that is the one application that we are talking about.

>
> > > IOW, if it can't replace either, it will
> > > be yet another solution which needs to
> > > be carried around.
> >
> > You mean to say, another tool in the bag of microarchitects? Then that's great.
>
> Just because it is feasible doesn't make it
> useful.

What is this semantics game you're trying to play?

> And useless tools just mean wasted
> time.
>
> > And, FYI, it has already been widely used for a long time in such capacity.
>
> Where? This is the first time I heard of it. I
> may have missed some special products, but I doubt
> everyone switched to eDRAM while I wasn't looking.

Pretty trivial to find them.

>
> > > > > It's just yet another
> > > > > indirection.
> > > >
> > > > What does this mean?
> > >
> > > IBM and Intel use it in separate dies
> > > between normal DRAM and their internal
> > > caches.
> >
> > That is not what is being discussed.
>
> It sounds important, why not discuss it?

Because that was not the topic of this thread.

>
> > > IIRC IBM also uses it inside the dies
> > > which carry the cores as caches. So,
> > > I'm off here.
> > >
> > > > > And it may be replaced
> > > > > with a different technology in a few
> > > > > years.
> > > >
> > > > Same can be said for everything.
> > >
> > > Not in context. For how many decades was DRAM
> > > (whatever version) as a separate package sold?
> >
> > For smartphones? Either zero or one, depending on when you start counting.
> >
> > But the good thing is that they are not wedded to long term solutions
> > and form factors. If something is cheaper, it will get used.
>
> Long term solutions are part of the cost.

What do you mean, and what is your point?
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                                The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/27 01:39 PM
                                  The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 02:38 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/27 03:49 PM
                                      The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/28 09:20 AM
                                        The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/28 11:05 AM
                                  The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/27 09:22 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/28 12:45 AM
                                      The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 03:08 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/28 11:08 AM
                                      The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 05:17 PM
                                        The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/29 03:29 AM
                                The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/27 01:41 PM
                                Difficulty of measuring performance from ArchitecturePaul A. Clayton2013/09/27 03:23 PM
                                  Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 04:46 PM
                                    Difficulty of measuring performance from ArchitectureEduardoS2013/09/27 04:52 PM
                                      Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 05:10 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 05:09 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 11:19 AM
                                why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/28 11:16 AM
                                  why did you exclude EV7?slacker2013/09/28 08:37 PM
                                    why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/29 12:50 AM
                                    Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect? (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/09/29 10:06 AM
                                      Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect?slacker2013/09/29 03:17 PM
                                        Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?Paul A. Clayton2013/09/30 05:14 PM
                                          Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?slacker2013/10/01 02:48 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/28 04:23 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/29 03:46 AM
                          The decline of ItaniumMegol2013/09/27 11:02 AM
                            The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 01:31 PM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 04:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 04:22 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 05:32 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:59 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDavid Kanter2013/09/25 01:26 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:32 PM
                  future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 06:58 AM
                    future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 07:43 AM
                      future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 09:00 AM
                        future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 09:24 AM
                          future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 11:46 AM
                            future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 05:39 PM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/26 10:51 AM
                                future of eDRAMDavid Kanter2013/09/28 10:29 AM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/27 05:23 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMKevin G2013/09/25 07:18 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 08:02 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 10:23 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 10:59 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/09/25 11:59 AM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 12:46 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 02:15 PM
                          POWER8 has 8 threads per coreMark Roulo2013/09/25 04:18 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/25 08:07 AM
                  Thanks, very informative (NT)anon2013/09/25 08:11 AM
                  Keep in mind IBM has eDRAM elsewhere than POWER (NT)anon2013/09/25 11:03 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMRichardC2013/09/25 07:12 AM
              It isn't just memory controllersMark Roulo2013/09/25 09:09 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMFoo_2013/09/24 12:52 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 10:29 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 11:55 AM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 12:00 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 04:01 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 05:31 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 07:34 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/24 01:11 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/24 06:17 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/24 08:44 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 01:56 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 02:50 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 03:14 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:28 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/25 04:24 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 04:55 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMEduardoS2013/09/25 02:07 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 10:01 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:12 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 02:23 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 02:45 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/25 05:49 PM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/26 10:52 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 11:51 AM
                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 01:04 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 02:07 PM
                      Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 03:06 PM
                        Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 06:21 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsrwessel2013/09/26 06:44 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 04:33 PM
                            Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 06:29 PM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 08:36 PM
                                Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 09:07 PM
                                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsanonymou52013/09/28 12:58 AM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsJ.Random Webmasta2013/09/28 01:11 AM
                        Slow with Core i7 920Jouni Osmala2013/09/26 11:25 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsNoSpammer2013/09/27 01:13 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 01:18 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 02:19 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 02:35 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 03:11 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 06:31 PM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/27 11:02 PM
                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David W2013/09/27 01:47 AM
                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Kanter2013/09/28 10:09 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 10:21 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 11:00 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 11:27 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)bakaneko2013/09/28 12:11 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 12:50 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)EduardoS2013/09/28 01:50 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 02:05 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/28 05:15 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 08:03 PM
                                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Gabriele Svelto2013/09/30 04:23 AM
                                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/09/30 07:23 AM
                                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/30 08:19 PM
                                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/10/01 04:55 AM
                                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Rob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:26 AM
                                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/10/01 01:53 PM
                                                  Adobe Acrobat reader start up timeMichael S2013/10/02 01:19 AM
                                                    Adobe Acrobat reader start up timebdcrazy2013/10/11 06:28 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:14 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultj2013/10/01 11:12 AM
                              There are two of us (or three)Mark Roulo2013/10/01 01:15 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 04:05 PM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/02 12:51 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/02 07:44 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/02 11:21 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultClemens Ladisch2013/10/03 12:20 AM
                                    Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/03 01:12 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/03 06:19 AM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultGabriele Svelto2013/10/03 02:05 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/03 10:15 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 02:59 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 03:53 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:55 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/26 08:15 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:45 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/02 10:14 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/02 10:03 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/10/03 12:00 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/03 10:08 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:50 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMRonald Maas2013/09/24 10:39 PM
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How do you spell avocado?