The decline of Itanium

By: mas (a.delete@this.b.com), September 29, 2013 11:42 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on September 29, 2013 4:50 pm wrote:
> Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on September 29, 2013 3:08 pm wrote:
> > mas (a.delete@this.b.com) on September 29, 2013 11:12 am wrote:
> > > bakaneko (nyan.delete@this.hyan.wan) on September 29, 2013 9:48 am wrote:
> > > > mas (a.delete@this.b.com) on September 29, 2013 9:31 am wrote:
> > > > > bakaneko (nyan.delete@this.hyan.wan) on September 29, 2013 8:59 am wrote:
> > > > > > mas (a.delete@this.b.com) on September 29, 2013 6:45 am wrote:
> > > > > > > Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on September 28, 2013 5:09 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > > Dan Fay (daniel.fay.delete@this.gmail.com) on September 28, 2013 3:38 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on September 28, 2013 1:11 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on September 28, 2013 11:39 am wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That suggests to me that it very likely costs Intel more to make Bay Trail than it costs Samsung to make
> > > > > > > > > > > A7, and when you add that to their higher gross margin the purchase price to the customer would probably
> > > > > > > > > > > be at least 50% higher
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You mean, Bay Trail Android tablets will be 50% more expensive to customers than A7-based iPad?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I read it as the "customer" being the tablet maker, not the end user, but that's just
> > > > > > > > > me. In the iPhone 5S, the A7 is about 10% of the phone's manufacturing cost, and is cheaper
> > > > > > > > > than the modem and screen, and about the same price as the phone's chassis.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, that's how I intended it. 50% more meaning $10 more than the $20 cost of A7. Not a huge
> > > > > > > > factor in terms of the final cost of the whole tablet, but not insignificant, either. Intel
> > > > > > > > could certainly make up for that with under the table "market development" money like they've
> > > > > > > > handed out for years. It doesn't appear they've played that card in the mobile market yet (or
> > > > > > > > if they have its been an utter failure) but at some point they're going to have to resort to
> > > > > > > > it to fool their shareholders into thinking they're meeting with some success versus ARM.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can get about 500 Bay Trail dies from a 300mm wafer assuming 80-90% yields. The
> > > > > > > raw wafer cost is about $3K as Intel does not have to pay itself a foundry margin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.icknowledge.com/products/icmodel.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > which means each Bay Trail is about $6, add a dollar for packaging gives you $7 which means 65% GMs at $20.
> > > > > > > This is how Digitimes can report Bay Trails will be as low as $10 which I assume will be the dual-core bin
> > > > > > > rejects allowing Intel 30% margin if they have to produce
> > > > > > > non-defect extras out of the quad-core die to meet
> > > > > > > a dual-core order. Clovertrail+ will be about $7 too with
> > > > > > > Medfield and Merrifield both about $5 die cost and
> > > > > > > the 32nm Atoms will now be sold at cost to get market share
> > > > > > > against A7, A8, A9, A12 SoCs etc and they are appearing
> > > > > > > in $100-200 android devices now. Intel is price competitive
> > > > > > > *now * against much smaller ARM cores because it
> > > > > > > does not have to pay a foundry margin which bumps up wafer cost to about $5.5K (see link).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Intel has to pay a foundry margin to its
> > > > > > own foundries unlike what you claim. It's
> > > > > > just under a different name in the books,
> > > > > > if there is any difference at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To expand on my earlier reply, it does not work like that for Intel. FABs/process
> > > > > technology comes under capital expenditure and R&D for Intel which is already
> > > > > paid for by Core revenue and profit. Atoms can piggy bank on this.
> > > >
> > > > That's silly, it doesn't matter what chip
> > > > comes first. Except you point at something
> > > > else, which you didn't explicitly state...
> > > >
> > >
> > > I did not think I needed to state that Intel's traditional x86 Core architecture already
> > > pays for its foundry and process technology out of its gross profits still leaving excess
> > > billions for buybacks/dividends/retained profit. After all it's only been Intel's business
> > > model ever since they started x86 thirty odd years ago. Sorry for assuming too much.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Also what about all the foundries which
> > > > don't need to pay to produce chips like
> > > > Haswell? Or maybe they do? :P
> > >
> > >
> >
> > People who want to investigate this further can find any view they like at
> > http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/intc
> > My opinion, scanning these articles, is that the pessimists are a lot more realistic, and
> > that the optimists are pointing to "Intel has great mobile CPUs to sell" without addressing
> > the point that's been raised here repeatedly --- the low profit in those sales.
> >
> > To address directly mas' points, look to the graph here:
> > http://seekingalpha.com/article/1121921-what-is-wrong-with-intel
> > which shows some Intel history up to the start of 2013. (I can't find a useful
> > graph that is more recent, but I would guess the trends have not changed.)
> > The points I consider notable are
> > - revenue from PCs has been flat for a while and is now turning down
> > - "other architecture segments" basically means Atom --- flat
> > and now down. MAYBE Bay Trail will turn that around?
> > - the only bright spot is the high end --- flat but no turn down. This is exactly what anyone
> > student of Clayton Christensen would predict. They're fleeing to the high end and, while making
> > desultory attempts to compete at the low end, their hearts aren't really in it. The high end
> > is fine for a while --- and that while can last for a long time if you are IBM --- but an Intel
> > concentrating on the high end is a very different Intel from the one we're used to.
> > It will be interesting to see how that high end curve reshapes
> > itself once the 2nd gen of ARM64 CPUs are released.
> >
>
> To follow up on this post, I found this interesting page:
> http://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/2698-intel-really-delaying-14nm-move-450mm-slipping-too-euv-who-knows.html
>
> The specifically interesting graph here is the third one, which shows the value of TSMC's output at
> 2/3rds of Intel's until early 2012, at which point it rises rapidly, to overtake Intel in 2Q2013.
> Point is, many of the statements in this thread are hypothecated on the assumption that
> Intel's current process lead means Intel has more money to throw at the problem, and so
> will maintain that lead forever. It's not clear to me that this assumption is true.
> An alternative story is that TSMC (and Samsung, for that matter) WERE poorer than Intel, meaning they
> have historically lagged, but the river of money flowing into them (because of phones and tablets)
> means they're no longer poorer, and this extra income will allow them to keep up with Intel.
>
> And all they have to do is "keep up". If they can create products every bit as good as Intel with
> nodes lagging one generation behind Intel, that's good enough --- and a lot more profitable.
>
> There's also the massive dark horse in the race, name Apple's foundry game. The rumors are that Apple is
> not merely using TSMC at 20nm, but in some fashion bankrolling the fab. This would match how Apple has contracted
> with Foxconn and Pegasus, where it essentially acted as banker, buying the tooling for advanced lines, and
> engaging in some sort of rent-to-own scheme whereby for at least some period of time those lines were for
> the exclusive benefit of Apple. If Apple does get exclusive use of TSMC 20nm for a year or two, that obviously
> helps Apple in all sorts of ways, but also has strange and unpredictable consequences for the ARM competitors
> to Apple (most notably Samsung). The one thing it certainly does NOT do, however, is lead to a world where
> Intel is king because it's the last guy standing making money from fabs...
>

You make good points but sometimes it can more than just about money and company IP and institutionalized knowledge may sometimes carry the day. Intel has been competing with IBM for decades over silicon processes and seems to have got the better over them over the years in getting cheaper mass-market processes and IBM has never been short of money. This has adversely affected AMD but the foundries have got away with the hurt because of smaller RISC dies making up for bigger poorer yielding processes. Well Intel's Atom is getting smaller and smaller to directly challenge this business model too. It's complicated and we don't know who the winners are going to be but to blindly assume Intel is doomed or even the big ARM licenses is too simplistic. I don't doubt Apple and Samsung will always be around and probably Qualcomm and Nvidia too all designing their own ARM chips but some of these other smaller ARM fabless companies I doubt unless they can make up for having a foundry markup handicap through other innovative features.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Charlie re: Apple and ARMjose2013/09/23 04:43 AM
  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMark Roulo2013/09/23 07:38 AM
    graphics and disk matter tooRichardC2013/09/23 12:23 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMJose2013/09/24 06:56 AM
      Previous CPU transitionsMark Roulo2013/09/24 07:20 AM
        Previous CPU transitionsRonald Maas2013/09/24 10:21 PM
  Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 09:16 AM
  Charlie re: Apple and ARMPatrick Chase2013/09/23 09:43 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/23 09:46 AM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMPatrick Chase2013/09/23 10:17 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMGabriele Svelto2013/09/23 10:24 AM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMPatrick Chase2013/09/23 10:40 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/23 12:42 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMPatrick Chase2013/09/23 06:47 PM
  Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/23 09:43 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 10:03 AM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/23 10:25 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 10:44 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 11:02 AM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/23 12:57 PM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 03:56 PM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMRicardo B2013/09/24 12:32 AM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMMartin Høyer Kristiansen2013/09/23 01:30 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/09/23 11:09 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 05:09 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 12:03 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 04:27 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 04:39 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 05:22 PM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/24 08:13 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/24 10:24 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/24 10:41 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/24 05:54 PM
                    The decline of ItaniumPaul A. Clayton2013/09/24 09:52 PM
                      The decline of ItaniumKira2013/09/25 06:07 AM
                        The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/25 06:15 AM
                          The decline of ItaniumKira2013/09/25 06:21 AM
                            Does Secure64 sell hardware?Paul A. Clayton2013/09/25 08:18 AM
                              Does Secure64 sell hardware?Kira2013/09/25 09:18 AM
                                Turns out they do rx2800 now. (NT)Kira2013/09/25 09:20 AM
                                Thanks again. RWT has some knowledgeable posters! (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/09/25 01:38 PM
                      The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/25 09:34 AM
                        The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/25 05:10 PM
                          The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/25 08:15 PM
                            The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/27 08:11 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/27 05:37 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/28 09:43 AM
                        The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/26 03:06 PM
                          The decline of ItaniumGabriele Svelto2013/09/26 03:35 PM
                            The decline of ItaniumKira2013/09/26 04:18 PM
                              The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 08:08 AM
                                The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/27 08:20 AM
                                  The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 08:56 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumLinus Torvalds2013/09/27 12:00 PM
                                      i960someone2013/09/27 01:06 PM
                                        i960Michael S2013/09/28 09:47 AM
                                          i960JS2013/09/29 02:43 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/28 10:00 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 10:51 AM
                                        The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/28 11:59 AM
                                          The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 12:43 PM
                                            The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/28 08:53 PM
                                        The decline of Itaniumgallier22013/09/30 01:06 AM
                                          x86 MCUsMichael S2013/09/30 02:13 AM
                                The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/27 09:52 AM
                                  The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 11:29 AM
                                The decline of ItaniumKira2013/09/27 10:19 AM
                                  oops - HC 1999, not 19 (NT)Kira2013/09/27 11:04 AM
                          The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/27 08:06 AM
                            The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 08:25 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumLinus Torvalds2013/09/27 10:07 AM
                                The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/27 06:09 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 07:07 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/27 09:12 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/28 06:02 AM
                                    Laptop DesignDavid Hess2013/09/28 10:58 AM
                                      Laptop DesignBrett2013/09/28 03:14 PM
                                        Laptop DesignDavid Hess2013/09/28 08:35 PM
                                        Laptop Designanon2013/09/30 02:11 AM
                                          Laptop DesignBrett2013/09/30 06:02 PM
                                      Laptop DesignRichardC2013/09/28 05:14 PM
                                        Laptop DesignDavid Hess2013/09/28 08:40 PM
                                          Laptop DesignMichael S2013/09/29 03:21 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/28 11:23 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/29 05:52 AM
                                      PS2Konrad Schwarz2013/09/30 12:53 AM
                                        PS2none2013/09/30 01:19 AM
                                        PS2Doug S2013/09/30 11:09 AM
                                        PS2sysanon2013/09/30 05:09 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumMegol2013/09/29 06:35 AM
                                      Apple's innovationsRichardC2013/09/29 07:00 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumBrett2013/09/29 02:56 PM
                                        The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/29 06:00 PM
                                          Apple's innovationsBrett2013/10/10 08:20 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/28 05:44 AM
                                  The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/28 05:23 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/29 04:51 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/29 08:27 AM
                                        The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/29 12:28 PM
                                          The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/29 04:00 PM
                                            The decline of ItaniumRichardC2013/09/29 06:07 PM
                                            The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/30 07:04 AM
                                              The decline of IntelRichardC2013/09/30 07:19 AM
                                                The decline of IntelKevin G2013/09/30 10:53 AM
                                                  The decline of IntelRichardC2013/09/30 11:13 AM
                                                    The decline of IntelKevin G2013/10/02 09:11 AM
                                                      The decline of Inteltarlinian2013/10/02 09:27 AM
                                                        The decline of IntelKevin G2013/10/04 10:24 AM
                                                          450mm and EUV insertionDavid Kanter2013/10/04 11:24 AM
                                                            450mm and EUV insertiontarlinian2013/10/04 12:23 PM
                                                              450mm and EUV insertionAnonym2013/10/04 11:39 PM
                                                                450mm and EUV insertiontarlinian2013/10/05 10:18 AM
                                                                  450mm and EUV insertionAnonym2013/10/05 12:51 PM
                                                                    450mm and EUV insertiontarlinian2013/10/05 01:42 PM
                                                                      450mm and EUV insertionAnonym2013/10/05 03:35 PM
                                                                        450mm and EUV insertiontarlinian2013/10/05 04:21 PM
                                                                      450mm and EUV insertionDavid Kanter2013/10/07 01:48 PM
                                                            450mm and EUV insertionKevin G2013/10/05 05:50 AM
                                                  The decline of IntelBrett2013/09/30 06:11 PM
                                                    The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/01 05:52 AM
                                                      The decline of Intelanon2013/10/01 06:27 AM
                                                        The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/01 07:13 AM
                                                          The decline of Intelmas2013/10/01 04:46 PM
                                                            The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/02 12:26 AM
                                                              The decline of Intelanon2013/10/02 02:05 AM
                                                                The decline of Intelnone2013/10/02 02:18 AM
                                                                  The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/02 02:35 AM
                                                                    The decline of Intelanon2013/10/02 02:57 AM
                                                                      The decline of IntelDoug S2013/10/02 10:08 AM
                                                                        The decline of Intelmas2013/10/02 10:40 AM
                                                                          The decline of IntelDoug S2013/10/02 07:32 PM
                                                                            The decline of IntelDavid Kanter2013/10/02 10:17 PM
                                                                      Intel vs. industry gapDavid Kanter2013/10/02 04:17 PM
                                                                        Intel vs. industry gapMaynard Handley2013/10/02 05:59 PM
                                                                          Intel vs. industry gaptarlinian2013/10/02 06:13 PM
                                                                            Intel vs. industry gapAnon2013/10/03 12:15 AM
                                                                              Intel vs. industry gaptarlinian2013/10/03 09:01 AM
                                                                          Intel vs. industry gapDavid Kanter2013/10/02 10:10 PM
                                                                            Intel vs. industry gapDoug S2013/10/03 09:59 AM
                                                                              Intel vs. industry gapanon2013/10/03 04:12 PM
                                                                                Intel vs. industry gapDoug S2013/10/03 04:56 PM
                                                                                  Intel vs. industry gapanon2013/10/03 05:48 PM
                                                                                  Intel vs. industry gapanonymou52013/10/03 05:59 PM
                                                                                    Intel vs. industry gapmas2013/10/04 01:10 AM
                                                                    The decline of IntelKlimax2013/10/02 03:46 AM
                                                                  The decline of Intelanon2013/10/02 02:53 AM
                                                              The decline of Inteltarlinian2013/10/02 09:24 AM
                                                      The decline of IntelDavid Kanter2013/10/01 09:06 AM
                                                        The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/02 12:09 AM
                                                          The decline of Inteltarlinian2013/10/02 08:58 AM
                                                          The decline of IntelDavid Kanter2013/10/02 10:45 AM
                                                            The decline of IntelPurana Archer2013/10/04 06:38 AM
                                                              The decline of IntelDavid Kanter2013/10/05 12:41 AM
                                                                The decline of IntelKevin G2013/10/05 08:14 AM
                                                                  The decline of IntelNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/10/05 12:49 PM
                                                                    The decline of IntelKevin G2013/10/06 08:45 AM
                                                                    The decline of IntelDoug S2013/10/06 10:11 PM
                                                                      The decline of IntelNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/10/07 06:14 AM
                                                                        The decline of IntelDoug S2013/10/07 04:36 PM
                                                           Tool Reuse, CAPEX EfficiencyAnonym2013/10/02 01:37 PM
                                                             Tool Reuse, CAPEX Efficiencytarlinian2013/10/02 03:55 PM
                                                      capex spendingDoug S2013/10/01 12:06 PM
                                                        Reducing Intel's lead with less than twice the spending??Paul A. Clayton2013/10/01 05:27 PM
                                                          Reducing Intel's lead with less than twice the spending??anon2013/10/01 08:07 PM
                                                            Reducing Intel's lead with less than twice the spending??mas2013/10/01 11:04 PM
                                                            Reducing Intel's lead with less than twice the spending??mas2013/10/01 11:06 PM
                                                              Reducing Intel's lead with less than twice the spending??mas2013/10/01 11:06 PM
                                                  Intel fabs on 22nmAlberto2013/10/01 03:23 AM
                                                  The decline of Intelmas2013/10/01 04:24 PM
                                                The decline of Intelanon2013/09/30 06:00 PM
                                          The decline of ItaniumDavid Kanter2013/09/29 11:19 PM
                                            competitive marketRichardC2013/09/30 06:33 AM
                                              competitive marketDavid Kanter2013/09/30 08:39 AM
                                                competitive marketRichardC2013/09/30 09:08 AM
                                                  competitive marketDavid Kanter2013/09/30 12:08 PM
                                                    competitive marketRichardC2013/09/30 02:00 PM
                                                    competitive marketAnon2013/10/03 12:34 AM
                                              competitive marketDoug S2013/09/30 11:13 AM
                                                competitive marketRichardC2013/09/30 11:28 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumKevin G2013/09/27 10:07 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 11:30 AM
                                The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 12:00 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumTREZA2013/09/27 01:50 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumMegol2013/09/28 12:52 AM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 05:03 PM
                                    The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 03:22 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/28 09:00 AM
                                        That's BSDavid Kanter2013/09/28 09:22 AM
                                        The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 05:15 PM
                                        The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 09:01 AM
                                          The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 09:06 AM
                                          The decline of ItaniumKevin G2013/09/29 11:06 AM
                                            Apple has 2-3 CPU design teamsDavid Kanter2013/09/29 11:39 AM
                                              The End of Moore's Lawhobold2013/09/30 03:00 AM
                                                Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.Mark Roulo2013/09/30 10:50 AM
                                                  Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.David Kanter2013/09/30 01:41 PM
                                                    Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.EduardoS2013/09/30 02:05 PM
                                                    Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Mark Roulo2013/09/30 03:15 PM
                                                      Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?mas2013/09/30 08:09 PM
                                                      Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Doug S2013/09/30 08:16 PM
                                                        Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?mas2013/09/30 09:05 PM
                                                          Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Doug S2013/10/01 12:28 PM
                                                            Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?mas2013/10/01 04:20 PM
                                                              Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Doug S2013/10/01 08:51 PM
                                                          Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Exophase2013/10/01 01:03 PM
                                                            Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?mas2013/10/01 04:17 PM
                                                              Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Exophase2013/10/01 10:18 PM
                                                                Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Doug S2013/10/02 10:18 AM
                                                                  Shouldn't the customers have *SOME* reason to move to the new process?Exophase2013/10/02 10:28 AM
                                                    Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.tarlinian2013/09/30 07:02 PM
                                                      Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.David Kanter2013/09/30 09:20 PM
                                                The End of Moore's LawGreg Gritton2013/10/01 09:11 AM
                                                  The End of Moore's LawKevin G2013/10/02 10:48 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumFoo_2013/09/28 08:50 AM
                                  The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/28 04:17 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumDan Fay2013/09/27 02:51 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 10:58 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/28 11:39 AM
                                      The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 01:11 PM
                                        The decline of ItaniumDan Fay2013/09/28 03:38 PM
                                          The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/28 05:09 PM
                                            The decline of ItaniumDan Fay2013/09/28 05:59 PM
                                            The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 06:45 AM
                                              The decline of Itaniumnone2013/09/29 07:10 AM
                                                Bay Trail die costmas2013/09/29 07:31 AM
                                                  Bay Trail die costnone2013/09/29 07:40 AM
                                                    Bay Trail die costmas2013/09/29 08:11 AM
                                                      Bay Trail die costmas2013/09/29 08:16 AM
                                                      Bay Trail die costDoug S2013/09/29 11:13 AM
                                                        Bay Trail die costmas2013/09/29 11:59 AM
                                                  Bay Trail die costRichardC2013/10/01 06:20 AM
                                              The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/29 08:59 AM
                                                The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 09:16 AM
                                                The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 09:31 AM
                                                  The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/29 09:48 AM
                                                    The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 11:12 AM
                                                      The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/29 11:53 AM
                                                        The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 12:11 PM
                                                          The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/29 03:15 PM
                                                            The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 11:28 PM
                                                              The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/30 01:26 AM
                                                                The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/30 07:20 AM
                                                                  The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/30 08:04 PM
                                                                    The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/30 08:42 PM
                                                                      The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/30 11:32 PM
                                                                        The decline of ItaniumDavid Kanter2013/10/01 12:43 AM
                                                                          The decline of Itaniumanon2013/10/01 02:37 AM
                                                                            The decline of ItaniumDavid Kanter2013/10/01 09:17 AM
                                                                        The decline of Itaniummas2013/10/01 01:54 AM
                                                                          The decline of Itaniumanon2013/10/01 02:39 AM
                                                          The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/30 04:26 AM
                                                      The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/29 03:08 PM
                                                        The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/29 04:50 PM
                                                          The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 11:42 PM
                                                          Semiconductor realitiesDavid Kanter2013/09/30 11:30 AM
                                                            Restricted rules for initial process use at foundries?Paul A. Clayton2013/09/30 04:33 PM
                                                              Restricted rules for initial process use at foundries?Ricardo B2013/10/01 12:47 AM
                                              $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7mas2013/10/02 12:10 PM
                                                $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7RichardC2013/10/03 08:51 AM
                                                  $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7mas2013/10/03 09:41 AM
                                                    $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7RichardC2013/10/03 10:56 AM
                                                    $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7Michael S2013/10/03 10:58 AM
                                                    $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7RichardC2013/10/03 11:07 AM
                                                      cheap would be in kindle fireRichardC2013/10/03 11:12 AM
                                                      $150 7" 800p Z2580 Dell Venue 7none2013/10/03 11:13 AM
                                                        Samsung Galaxy Tab battery lifeMichael S2013/10/03 02:18 PM
                                                          Samsung Galaxy Tab battery lifenone2013/10/03 03:17 PM
                                                            Samsung Galaxy Tab battery lifeExophase2013/10/03 03:42 PM
                                          The decline of Itaniumnone2013/09/29 02:15 AM
                                            The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/29 11:25 AM
                                              The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 12:23 PM
                                              Qualcomm?David Kanter2013/09/29 11:45 PM
                                                Qualcomm?none2013/09/30 01:36 AM
                                                  Qualcomm?Alberto2013/10/01 09:03 AM
                                                  Qualcomm?Alberto2013/10/01 01:03 PM
                                        A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailThu2013/09/28 08:52 PM
                                          A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailMichael S2013/09/29 02:24 AM
                                            A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailMaynard Handley2013/09/29 09:41 AM
                                            A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailbakaneko2013/09/29 10:44 AM
                                              A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailLinus Torvalds2013/09/29 02:22 PM
                                                A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailnone2013/09/29 03:37 PM
                              The decline of Itaniumanoanon2013/09/28 04:14 AM
                                The decline of ItaniumDoug S2013/09/28 11:44 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/09/28 09:31 AM
                            The decline of ItaniumKevin G2013/09/27 09:47 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumDavid Hess2013/10/05 06:35 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumKevin G2013/10/06 08:55 AM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/10/06 09:13 AM
                            The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/27 10:10 AM
                              The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 12:24 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/27 01:39 PM
                                  The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/27 02:38 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/27 03:49 PM
                                      The decline of Itaniumsomeone2013/09/28 09:20 AM
                                        The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/28 11:05 AM
                                  The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/27 09:22 PM
                                    The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/28 12:45 AM
                                      The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 03:08 AM
                                    The decline of ItaniumEduardoS2013/09/28 11:08 AM
                                      The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 05:17 PM
                                        The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/29 03:29 AM
                                The decline of Itaniumbakaneko2013/09/27 01:41 PM
                                Difficulty of measuring performance from ArchitecturePaul A. Clayton2013/09/27 03:23 PM
                                  Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 04:46 PM
                                    Difficulty of measuring performance from ArchitectureEduardoS2013/09/27 04:52 PM
                                      Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 05:10 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 05:09 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 11:19 AM
                                why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/28 11:16 AM
                                  why did you exclude EV7?slacker2013/09/28 08:37 PM
                                    why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/29 12:50 AM
                                    Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect? (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/09/29 10:06 AM
                                      Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect?slacker2013/09/29 03:17 PM
                                        Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?Paul A. Clayton2013/09/30 05:14 PM
                                          Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?slacker2013/10/01 02:48 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/28 04:23 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/29 03:46 AM
                          The decline of ItaniumMegol2013/09/27 11:02 AM
                            The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 01:31 PM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 04:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 04:22 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 05:32 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:59 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDavid Kanter2013/09/25 01:26 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:32 PM
                  future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 06:58 AM
                    future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 07:43 AM
                      future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 09:00 AM
                        future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 09:24 AM
                          future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 11:46 AM
                            future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 05:39 PM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/26 10:51 AM
                                future of eDRAMDavid Kanter2013/09/28 10:29 AM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/27 05:23 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMKevin G2013/09/25 07:18 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 08:02 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 10:23 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 10:59 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/09/25 11:59 AM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 12:46 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 02:15 PM
                          POWER8 has 8 threads per coreMark Roulo2013/09/25 04:18 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/25 08:07 AM
                  Thanks, very informative (NT)anon2013/09/25 08:11 AM
                  Keep in mind IBM has eDRAM elsewhere than POWER (NT)anon2013/09/25 11:03 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMRichardC2013/09/25 07:12 AM
              It isn't just memory controllersMark Roulo2013/09/25 09:09 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMFoo_2013/09/24 12:52 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 10:29 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 11:55 AM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 12:00 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 04:01 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 05:31 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 07:34 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/24 01:11 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/24 06:17 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/24 08:44 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 01:56 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 02:50 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 03:14 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:28 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/25 04:24 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 04:55 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMEduardoS2013/09/25 02:07 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 10:01 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:12 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 02:23 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 02:45 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/25 05:49 PM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/26 10:52 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 11:51 AM
                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 01:04 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 02:07 PM
                      Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 03:06 PM
                        Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 06:21 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsrwessel2013/09/26 06:44 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 04:33 PM
                            Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 06:29 PM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 08:36 PM
                                Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 09:07 PM
                                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsanonymou52013/09/28 12:58 AM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsJ.Random Webmasta2013/09/28 01:11 AM
                        Slow with Core i7 920Jouni Osmala2013/09/26 11:25 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsNoSpammer2013/09/27 01:13 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 01:18 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 02:19 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 02:35 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 03:11 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 06:31 PM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/27 11:02 PM
                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David W2013/09/27 01:47 AM
                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Kanter2013/09/28 10:09 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 10:21 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 11:00 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 11:27 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)bakaneko2013/09/28 12:11 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 12:50 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)EduardoS2013/09/28 01:50 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 02:05 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/28 05:15 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 08:03 PM
                                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Gabriele Svelto2013/09/30 04:23 AM
                                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/09/30 07:23 AM
                                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/30 08:19 PM
                                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/10/01 04:55 AM
                                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Rob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:26 AM
                                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/10/01 01:53 PM
                                                  Adobe Acrobat reader start up timeMichael S2013/10/02 01:19 AM
                                                    Adobe Acrobat reader start up timebdcrazy2013/10/11 06:28 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:14 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultj2013/10/01 11:12 AM
                              There are two of us (or three)Mark Roulo2013/10/01 01:15 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 04:05 PM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/02 12:51 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/02 07:44 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/02 11:21 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultClemens Ladisch2013/10/03 12:20 AM
                                    Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/03 01:12 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/03 06:19 AM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultGabriele Svelto2013/10/03 02:05 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/03 10:15 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 02:59 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 03:53 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:55 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/26 08:15 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:45 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/02 10:14 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/02 10:03 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/10/03 12:00 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/03 10:08 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:50 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMRonald Maas2013/09/24 10:39 PM
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