Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.

By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), September 30, 2013 9:20 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
tarlinian (tarlinian.delete@this.gmail.com) on September 30, 2013 7:02 pm wrote:
> David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com) on September 30, 2013 1:41 pm
> >
> > Some of this is just customers squawking about TSMC's pricing. The optimal strategy for
> > TSMC is to charge as much as they can for a new process to get all the customers with a
> > high willingness to pay and gradually lower pricing to expand the customer base. So some
> > of the complaints are just customers trying to negotiate in the public arena with TSMC.
> >
> > However, what is different now is that foundries need to use double patterning on metal layers
> > (as an aside, I'm not sure when they first used DP for transistors), which is definitely painful
> > for throughput/cost. That drives cost up, which in turn drives wafer pricing up.
> >
> > Intel's approach to metallization is much more cost effective, but
> > means more restrictive design rules and a bit of a hit on density.
> >
> > David
> >
>
> There are several schemes for double patterning, cut masks, which Intel has been using for poly since
> 45 nm. (That's why they were able to skip immersion lithography at the 45 nm node.) There, you one mask
> to pattern a 1D grating. You then use one (or more, depending on cut pitch) masks to cut the grating
> to make your desired layout. This obviously requires your physical design to be 1 dimensional for a given
> layer. I believe the foundries have started requiring 1D poly at 28 nm. (I may be mistaken here though.)
> Using immersion lithography, this technique is limited to 80 nm pitch. (2D patterns are limited to 120
> or 130 nm pitch, I think...). Even though this technique requires the use of multiple masks and multiple
> litho and etch steps this is not typically considered double patterning by most folks because the double
> patterning aspects of the technique are hidden in the restrictive design rules.
>
> Then there is self-aligned double patterning (aka spacer double patterning), a sort of extension
> of line and cut mask patterning, where spacers are deposited on a grating created with standard lithography.
> Here, the reduction in pitch does not depend on an additional lithography step. Intel uses this extensively.
> It's also used extensively in memory. They're using it for fin creation with their 22 nm process
> and based on their use of gridded design rules for 80 nm metal pitch at 22 nm, will likely do something
> similar with SADP metal layers for 14 nm. It's also relatively extendable to smaller pitches by further
> pitch division via additional spacer deposition and etch steps.
>
> The foundries are using litho-etch-litho-etch for double patterning of metal layers at 20 nm. This
> requires knowledge of "colorization" for your physical design of the metal layers. i.e, you need to
> do your physical design while aware of the fact that the layout needs to be split into two masks. It
> also becomes less extendable due to the fact that each further reduction in pitch requires an additional
> litho and etch step which are the two most expensive pieces of equipment in the fab. In order to switch
> to an Intel style patterning scheme it would require significant investment in porting a ton of physical
> IP to gridded design rules and is probably only relatively simple for FPGA manufacturers. This is
> also likely why we still don't see internally fabricated Intel wireless modems.

Thanks for that excellent explanation!

David
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                                        The decline of Itaniumanon2013/09/28 05:15 PM
                                        The decline of Itaniummas2013/09/29 09:01 AM
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                                                    Lower cost to process scaling can no longer be assumed.EduardoS2013/09/30 02:05 PM
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                                                Qualcomm?none2013/09/30 01:36 AM
                                                  Qualcomm?Alberto2013/10/01 09:03 AM
                                                  Qualcomm?Alberto2013/10/01 01:03 PM
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                                          A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailMichael S2013/09/29 02:24 AM
                                            A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailMaynard Handley2013/09/29 09:41 AM
                                            A7 much faster at graphics than BayTrailbakaneko2013/09/29 10:44 AM
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                                  Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 04:46 PM
                                    Difficulty of measuring performance from ArchitectureEduardoS2013/09/27 04:52 PM
                                      Difficulty of measuring performance from Architecturesomeone2013/09/27 05:10 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMaynard Handley2013/09/27 05:09 PM
                                  The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 11:19 AM
                                why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/28 11:16 AM
                                  why did you exclude EV7?slacker2013/09/28 08:37 PM
                                    why did you exclude EV7?Michael S2013/09/29 12:50 AM
                                    Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect? (NT)Paul A. Clayton2013/09/29 10:06 AM
                                      Wasn't Athlon XP also copper interconnect?slacker2013/09/29 03:17 PM
                                        Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?Paul A. Clayton2013/09/30 05:14 PM
                                          Was the SPEC CPU2000 result CU or Al?slacker2013/10/01 02:48 AM
                              The decline of ItaniumRicardo B2013/09/28 04:23 PM
                                The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/29 03:46 AM
                          The decline of ItaniumMegol2013/09/27 11:02 AM
                            The decline of ItaniumMichael S2013/09/28 01:31 PM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 04:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 04:22 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMSimon Farnsworth2013/09/25 05:32 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:59 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDavid Kanter2013/09/25 01:26 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 05:32 PM
                  future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 06:58 AM
                    future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 07:43 AM
                      future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 09:00 AM
                        future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 09:24 AM
                          future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/25 11:46 AM
                            future of eDRAManon2013/09/25 05:39 PM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/26 10:51 AM
                                future of eDRAMDavid Kanter2013/09/28 10:29 AM
                              future of eDRAMbakaneko2013/09/27 05:23 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMKevin G2013/09/25 07:18 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 08:02 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 10:23 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 10:59 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMNiels Jørgen Kruse2013/09/25 11:59 AM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 12:46 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 02:15 PM
                          POWER8 has 8 threads per coreMark Roulo2013/09/25 04:18 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMsomeone2013/09/25 08:07 AM
                  Thanks, very informative (NT)anon2013/09/25 08:11 AM
                  Keep in mind IBM has eDRAM elsewhere than POWER (NT)anon2013/09/25 11:03 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMRichardC2013/09/25 07:12 AM
              It isn't just memory controllersMark Roulo2013/09/25 09:09 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMFoo_2013/09/24 12:52 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 10:29 AM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 11:55 AM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDrazick2013/09/23 12:00 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/23 04:01 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/23 05:31 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/23 07:34 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/24 01:11 PM
      Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/24 06:17 PM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/24 08:44 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 01:56 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 02:50 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:06 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 03:14 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/09/25 03:28 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/25 04:24 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMnone2013/09/25 04:55 AM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMEduardoS2013/09/25 02:07 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/25 10:01 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:12 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/25 02:23 PM
          Charlie re: Apple and ARMWilco2013/09/25 02:45 AM
            Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/25 05:49 PM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMMichael S2013/09/26 10:52 AM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 11:51 AM
                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 01:04 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 02:07 PM
                      Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsMark Roulo2013/09/26 03:06 PM
                        Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/26 06:21 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsrwessel2013/09/26 06:44 PM
                          Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 04:33 PM
                            Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 06:29 PM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadssysanon2013/09/27 08:36 PM
                                Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsDoug S2013/09/27 09:07 PM
                                  Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsanonymou52013/09/28 12:58 AM
                              Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsJ.Random Webmasta2013/09/28 01:11 AM
                        Slow with Core i7 920Jouni Osmala2013/09/26 11:25 PM
                    Animated GIF seems slow on iPadsNoSpammer2013/09/27 01:13 AM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 01:18 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 02:19 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 02:35 PM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 03:11 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/09/26 06:31 PM
                          Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/27 11:02 PM
                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David W2013/09/27 01:47 AM
                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Kanter2013/09/28 10:09 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 10:21 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 11:00 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 11:27 AM
                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)bakaneko2013/09/28 12:11 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 12:50 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)EduardoS2013/09/28 01:50 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/09/28 02:05 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/28 05:15 PM
                                    Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)David Hess2013/09/28 08:03 PM
                                      Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Gabriele Svelto2013/09/30 04:23 AM
                                        Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/09/30 07:23 AM
                                          Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Doug S2013/09/30 08:19 PM
                                            Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Jukka Larja2013/10/01 04:55 AM
                                              Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Rob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:26 AM
                                                Firefox PDF reader (re: Charlie re: Apple and ARM)Michael S2013/10/01 01:53 PM
                                                  Adobe Acrobat reader start up timeMichael S2013/10/02 01:19 AM
                                                    Adobe Acrobat reader start up timebdcrazy2013/10/11 06:28 AM
                          Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 08:14 AM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultj2013/10/01 11:12 AM
                              There are two of us (or three)Mark Roulo2013/10/01 01:15 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultRob Thorpe2013/10/01 04:05 PM
                            Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/02 12:51 PM
                              Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/02 07:44 PM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/02 11:21 PM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultClemens Ladisch2013/10/03 12:20 AM
                                    Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultrwessel2013/10/03 01:12 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultSymmetry2013/10/03 06:19 AM
                                Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultGabriele Svelto2013/10/03 02:05 AM
                                  Firefox PDF reader - am I the only person who likes the defaultDoug S2013/10/03 10:15 AM
              Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/09/26 02:59 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMMaynard Handley2013/09/26 03:53 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:55 PM
                Charlie re: Apple and ARMLinus Torvalds2013/09/26 08:15 PM
                  Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/01 10:45 PM
                    Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/02 10:14 AM
                      Charlie re: Apple and ARMJohn Poole2013/10/02 10:03 PM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARManon2013/10/03 12:00 AM
                        Charlie re: Apple and ARMDoug S2013/10/03 10:08 AM
        Charlie re: Apple and ARMAlberto2013/09/25 01:50 PM
    Charlie re: Apple and ARMRonald Maas2013/09/24 10:39 PM
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