on ISAs and a plea for piece

By: juanrga (nospam.delete@this.juanrga.com), August 16, 2014 3:15 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on August 15, 2014 4:41 pm wrote:
> David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com) on August 15, 2014 3:01 pm wrote:
> > juanrga (nospam.delete@this.juanrga.com) on August 15, 2014 11:39 am wrote:
> > > David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com) on August 15, 2014 9:41 am wrote:
> > >
> > > > I also am skeptical that anyone can match Intel in performance while trailing behind by a node. To do that,
> > > > it is necessary to offer a very different product with a
> > > > different system architecture. E.g., target workloads
> > > > where cache does not help and simply slap down more memory controllers and cores (hint: that's a GPU!).
> >
> > > The ISA advantage will be greatly reduced in the top-end
> > > side of the performance spectrum, but will not vanish.
> > > Keller mentioned during Core Day conference that his K12
> > > core will have a "bigger engine" than its x86 sister
> > > thanks to the advantages of ARMv8 over x86-64, which allows to spend more transistors on compute.
> >
> > I happen to know the differences between those two designs. I'm not really sure it's
> > going to translate into a significant performance delta. My guess is maybe 10%.
>
> 10% is two years of Intel's current 5% improvement a year.

And what if final number is more close to 20--30%?

> Maybe that's why there's so much disagreement here? Some of us see "two years"
> and think that's massive, some of us see "10%" and think that's nothing?
>
> ..
>
> I don't want to get involved in the fight over whether various forthcoming ARM64 CPUs are "real" or "servers",
> but I do get the feeling that most of the vitriol is being generated as a result of miscommunication.
>
> In particular, I get the feeling that the x86 partisans have a particular model in mind for what a
> "server" IS, and are vociferous that nothing in the ARM camp meets that definition. (Of course it
> doesn't, if the definition includes "runs x86 code", but what we're seeing is more subtle than that.
> The expectation is that a server is a certain type of box, running certain types of code, with certain
> types of IO, costing a certain amount, and being sold to a certain type of customer. )
>
> On the other hand, the ARM proponent are trying to be a lot more catholic in their tastes. They see
> a "server" as a much more generic term, and see everywhere they look, jobs that could be done perfectly
> well with boxes that are cheap, that don't demand particular RAS features, that can run fairly generic
> software, that can be unbalanced in various ways (whether it's amount of RAM, or RAM bandwidth, or
> IO or whatever). They see a world which needs ever more CDNs, ever more memcached boxes, maybe boxes
> that sit between IPv6 and IPv4 networks and translate between them, maybe boxes that do nothing but
> scan twitter feeds looking for keywords and correlating activity, etc etc.
> Point is, they see a world of computing tasks to be done, and which can be done adequately, and a lot more
> cheaply, on various models of these upcoming ARM "server" SoCs. In many ways this is no different from the
> point in the mid-90's where first Google and then a few other internet companies made a big deal about the
> fact that they did not need (and were not prepared to pay) for "server" quality hardware --- they were quite
> happy to put together boxes that did what they needed and did not do a damn thing more.
> The frustration arises because the pro-x86 people appear to refuse to engage with this possibility


I cannot tell for others, but I have been using the term "server" in a standard way:

Rather than just web serving, these systems are being built to also power data analytics on Hadoop clusters, fetch and put data in NoSQL data stores, streaming media and high-performance computing, sharing processing duties with GPUs, FPGAs or ASICs.


http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/data-center/arms-battle-for-the-datacentre-the-contenders/

During presentation of new ARM-HPC systems Nvidia and Applied Micro claimed that first gen ARM SoCs "can drive full GPU performance" and Applied Micro added that

will be able to show that an X-Gene 1 plus a Tesla K20 coprocessor will be equivalent to an X86 processor plus the same Tesla K20 floating point motor.


http://www.hpcwire.com/2014/06/23/gpus-add-arm-chips-hpc/


> (I'd draw an analogy to gaming, where the types of people who play a particular type of game game on souped
> up $3000 rigs simply will not accept that playing a game on your iPhone or Android tablet counts as gaming
> in any "real" sense --- and thus are mostly blind to how the world around them is changing.
> One can understand their anger/fear --- the sooner the world is content with that sort of
> gaming, the sooner the world will stop manufacturing, at least at prices and in form factors
> that are useful to gamers, the types of GPUs that hardcore gamers utilize. But pretending
> the world is not changing because you don't want it to has never served anyone well.)
>
> ..
>
> Finally, over the past three months or so, something appears to have broken on this board.
> The way I see it, the value (and joy) of this forum is that people can throw out ideas and have
> them critiqued. Some of the ideas we throw out will be flawed --- and with luck the arguments
> presented against them will convince us. Some of the ideas we throw out will be undecidable, at
> least for now, but hopefully we'll all learn something as they are attacked and defended.


It looks as I joined at wrong time then.


> An important point in all this, however, is that just because ideas are presented does not mean that
> they are strongly held, and does not mean that they need to be attacked like a rabid wolverine. Posts
> that consists of nothing but "It seems to me plausible, but I could be wrong, that maybe the right
> thing for Intel to do is..." or "Some people say ARM is like this, but then I've also read it's like
> that" are difficult and irritating to read. That is not the way you talk to your friends in real
> life, and it shouldn't (IMHO) have to be the way you talk on a forum like this.
>
> I'd urge everyone on this board to step back a little and reimagine what's happening here as something like
> a group of EE seniors chatting with each other in the dorm room late at night. We all have interesting FACTS
> that we can use to bolster arguments. We all have interesting OPINIONS about where things will (and should)
> go, opinions based on patterns we perceive, on our interpretation of history, on our understanding of the economics
> and business issues involved. We all have interesting QUESTIONS, some fact based (is this possible? has anyone
> ever done this), some opinion based (how would you handle this engineering/business problem).
>
> The joy of the conversation is in learning stuff along the way, it's not in "winning" by reducing your
> opponent to a pulp. Even if your opponent is a fool, in real life the way you would handle that is to
> explain (once, maybe with one followup) that he is wrong, and then to gently ignore him. Maybe take him
> aside and explain that his enthusiasm is appreciated but he's not really following dorm etiquette.
> EVERYONE needs to understand that the fun, in discussing "does ISA matter; will ARM64 servers take off;
> these features will definitely (not) be in the A8; etc" is in the first few posts where the initial arguments
> on each side are made. And EVERYONE needs to appreciate that once each argument has been made twice, it's
> time to move on. We'll revise the issue in a year when we have a year's more data, but until then nothing
> is achieved by repeating the same point a third time or more, or switching from technical discussion to
> impugning motives, ad hominem attacks, and accusations of stupidity/incompetence/lying.
>
> Let me end by giving just one example of all this. A few weeks ago Apple's Cyclone was being discussed. I said,
> based on my understanding (ie facts, opinions, my personal history), that this seemed like a 4-wide design to
> me. Reading the subsequence discussion, I've been converted to the opinion that it IS actually a six-wide design.
> That's valuable; that's how the system should work. I begin with a legitimate (but likely incorrect) opinion,
> and on seeing various good argument, I change to an opinion that's (likely) closer to correct.
> BUT
> I've also come to the opinion that the way Apple achieved this is not through a "simple" 6-wide
> design, but through a clustered design specifically two 3-wide clusters, presumably one basically
> a full 64-bit version of the Swift execution core, and the other slightly stripped down (missing
> division/sqrt and maybe various special purpose [OS, atomics, etc] instructions). This, I think,
> would have been interesting and pleasant for everyone to discuss, but I was reluctant to raise
> the matter given the unpleasant tone that so much of the discussion had taken.
>
> So that's my attempt to bring things back on track.
> September looks likely to be the most interesting CPU month in a long long time. Many people are
> going to want to say many things about a variety of new devices launching or about to be launched.
> It would be nice if we all treated what we learn/hypothesize about as entertaining and good-natured
> ribbing among friends, rather than a match to the death in which every piece of bad news for my
> tribe has to be crushed, along with those who support it, lest shame befall my god.

< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
TopicPosted ByDate
An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeYuhong Bao2014/08/03 02:24 PM
  An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeJoe User2014/08/03 04:51 PM
  An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeExophase2014/08/03 10:06 PM
    An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeMichael S2014/08/04 12:44 AM
      An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeExophase2014/08/04 08:45 AM
        DiscountsRob Thorpe2014/08/04 01:57 PM
          DiscountsAaron Spink2014/08/05 02:34 AM
        An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeAaron Spink2014/08/05 02:32 AM
          Current trajectory favors arm-book in futureanon2014/08/06 02:48 PM
            Current trajectory favors arm-book in futureUngo2014/08/06 05:34 PM
            Current trajectory favors arm-book in futureDoug S2014/08/06 09:21 PM
            The return to irrelevance.Alberto2014/08/07 03:04 AM
    An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeJacob Marley2014/08/04 04:07 AM
  An ARM-based Mac article by Gasseeanon2014/08/03 10:29 PM
    An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeExophase2014/08/03 11:05 PM
      An ARM-based Mac article by GasseeNiels Jørgen Kruse2014/08/03 11:32 PM
    An ARM-based Mac article by Gasseeex-apple2014/08/04 06:20 PM
      An ARM-based Mac article by GasseePatrick Chase2014/08/04 07:51 PM
        Mac Intel urban legendsWes Felter2014/08/05 08:19 PM
          Mac Intel urban legendsUngo2014/08/06 03:09 PM
  An ARM-based Mac article by Gasseejuanrga2014/08/04 02:05 AM
    Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Doug S2014/08/04 08:01 AM
      Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Exophase2014/08/04 03:20 PM
        Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Patrick Chase2014/08/04 07:46 PM
        Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Doug S2014/08/04 08:14 PM
          Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Aaron Spink2014/08/05 02:11 AM
            Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Patrick Chase2014/08/05 08:40 AM
      Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?vvid2014/08/05 09:51 AM
        Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Doug S2014/08/05 02:11 PM
          Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Doug S2014/08/05 02:15 PM
          Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?vvid2014/08/05 05:42 PM
            Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Ungo2014/08/06 06:04 PM
              Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?vvid2014/08/08 04:35 AM
                Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Ungo2014/08/08 02:58 PM
      Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/05 10:27 AM
        Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Michael S2014/08/08 04:58 AM
          Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/08 11:00 AM
            Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Klimax2014/08/08 01:17 PM
            Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Ungo2014/08/08 04:48 PM
              Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/08 06:40 PM
                Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?David Kanter2014/08/08 11:51 PM
                  Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/09 05:57 AM
                    Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Aaron Spink2014/08/09 07:43 AM
                      Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/09 08:06 AM
                      Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Jukka Larja2014/08/17 04:40 AM
                  Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?dmcq2014/08/09 09:50 AM
                  Intel binning advantagePaul A. Clayton2014/08/09 10:58 AM
                  Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Ronald Maas2014/08/10 07:12 PM
                    Where is the profit?Paul A. Clayton2014/08/10 09:23 PM
                Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Ungo2014/08/11 03:02 PM
        Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?David Kanter2014/08/08 11:41 PM
          Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?juanrga2014/08/09 06:01 AM
            Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?dmcq2014/08/09 10:10 AM
              Why either or, why not both for the Pro line?Exophase2014/08/10 10:20 AM
  Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Mark Roulo2014/08/04 08:43 AM
    Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Anon2014/08/04 01:17 PM
      Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Kevin G2014/08/05 11:11 AM
        Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Ricardo B2014/08/05 02:30 PM
    Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Maxwell2014/08/04 07:55 PM
      Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?gallier22014/08/05 01:28 AM
        Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?Patrick Chase2014/08/05 08:48 AM
        Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?David Hess2014/08/05 04:59 PM
      Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?David Hess2014/08/05 04:56 PM
        Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?rwessel2014/08/05 05:40 PM
          Shouldn't Gassee get his basic facts right?David Hess2014/08/06 11:59 AM
  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAlberto2014/08/06 03:51 AM
    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechdmcq2014/08/06 05:01 AM
    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/06 11:55 AM
      A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/06 07:54 PM
        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/06 07:57 PM
        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechPatrick Chase2014/08/07 09:39 AM
        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/08 10:49 AM
          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/08 11:23 AM
            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/08 12:09 PM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechKlimax2014/08/08 01:12 PM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/08 04:36 PM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechKlimax2014/08/09 01:31 AM
                    Actually, he did.iz2014/08/09 02:05 AM
                      Actually, he did.Klimax2014/08/09 02:36 AM
                        Actually, he did.Klimax2014/08/09 02:51 AM
                          Actually, he did.juanrga2014/08/09 05:26 AM
                            Actually, he did.Klimax2014/08/10 11:01 AM
                              Actually, he did.Wilco2014/08/10 12:29 PM
                                Actually, he did.Klimax2014/08/10 02:04 PM
                                  Actually, he did.Wilco2014/08/11 02:52 AM
                                    Actually, he did.Klimax2014/08/11 11:08 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjoel2014/08/08 02:26 PM
                A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/09 11:01 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechKlimax2014/08/09 02:10 PM
                    x87 taxMichael S2014/08/09 02:37 PM
                      x87 taxKlimax2014/08/10 08:48 AM
                        Visual C and x87Eugene Nalimov2014/08/11 04:07 PM
                          Visual C and x87rwessel2014/08/11 06:32 PM
                            Visual C and x87Eugene Nalimov2014/08/12 09:29 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjoel2014/08/11 04:21 PM
            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/09 12:29 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/09 04:22 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/09 05:03 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechDavid Kanter2014/08/09 09:55 AM
                    Complexity = f (area, X, Y) not f(area)Paul A. Clayton2014/08/09 01:47 PM
                    x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.Jouni Osmala2014/08/10 04:27 AM
                      x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.dmcq2014/08/10 05:09 AM
                        x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.Jouni Osmala2014/08/10 05:53 AM
                      x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.juanrga2014/08/10 06:24 AM
                        x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.Aaron Spink2014/08/10 07:24 AM
                          x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.juanrga2014/08/11 07:05 PM
                            x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.Aaron Spink2014/08/11 08:28 PM
                        Stop trollingDavid Kanter2014/08/10 09:12 PM
                          Stop trollingExophase2014/08/10 09:34 PM
                            Thunder chips dissipate 20 to 95 watts for SoCsjuanrga2014/08/11 06:38 PM
                              Thunder chips dissipate 20 to 95 watts for SoCsKlimax2014/08/11 10:03 PM
                          Is comparing to highest bin fair?Paul A. Clayton2014/08/11 01:37 AM
                            Is comparing to highest bin fair?David Kanter2014/08/13 12:18 PM
                              What kind of comparison was intended?Paul A. Clayton2014/08/13 04:18 PM
                          Stop ignoring datajuanrga2014/08/11 07:00 PM
                            Stop ignoring dataKlimax2014/08/11 10:06 PM
                              Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadejuanrga2014/08/12 02:21 AM
                                Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadeAaron Spink2014/08/12 02:24 AM
                                  Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadejuanrga2014/08/12 03:00 AM
                                    Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadeAaron Spink2014/08/12 03:08 AM
                                      Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadejuanrga2014/08/12 03:25 AM
                                Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadeKlimax2014/08/12 06:29 AM
                                  Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadejuanrga2014/08/12 11:19 AM
                                    Seriously guys stop this anti-ARM charadeKlimax2014/08/12 02:08 PM
                                Seriously guys stop this pro-ARM troll called JuanrgaJ Random Hacker2014/08/19 05:47 PM
                                  Seriously guys stop this pro-ARM troll called Juanrgaanon2014/08/20 03:46 PM
                            Design targets aren't dataDavid Kanter2014/08/13 01:07 PM
                              I agreejuanrga2014/08/13 03:16 PM
                                I agreeDavid Kanter2014/08/14 11:37 PM
                                  Not again, thanksjuanrga2014/08/15 03:22 AM
                                  I agreeRonald Maas2014/08/15 07:40 AM
                                    I agreeMichael S2014/08/15 07:55 AM
                                      I agreeDavid Kanter2014/08/15 09:43 AM
                                      I agreejuanrga2014/08/15 11:28 AM
                                    I agreeDavid Kanter2014/08/15 09:41 AM
                                      I agreejuanrga2014/08/15 11:39 AM
                                        I agreeKlimax2014/08/15 01:57 PM
                                        I agreeDavid Kanter2014/08/15 03:01 PM
                                          on ISAs and a plea for pieceMaynard Handley2014/08/15 04:41 PM
                                            on ISAs and a plea for piecejuanrga2014/08/16 03:15 AM
                                              on ISAs and a plea for pieceKlimax2014/08/16 03:56 AM
                                                on ISAs and a plea for piecejuanrga2014/08/16 04:39 AM
                                                  on ISAs and a plea for pieceKlimax2014/08/16 07:52 AM
                                                    on ISAs and a plea for piecejuanrga2014/08/16 11:21 AM
                                            on ISAs and a plea for pieceRicardo B2014/08/16 08:51 AM
                                              on ISAs and a plea for pieceMaynard Handley2014/08/16 09:45 AM
                                                on ISAs and a plea for pieceRicardo B2014/08/16 10:14 AM
                                              on ISAs and a plea for piecejuanrga2014/08/16 10:54 AM
                                                on ISAs and a plea for pieceRicardo B2014/08/16 11:32 AM
                                              on ISAs and a plea for pieceSymmetry2014/08/17 06:32 AM
                                                on ISAs and a plea for pieceRicardo B2014/08/17 07:07 AM
                                          K12Alexko2014/08/15 05:43 PM
                                            K12David Kanter2014/08/15 06:54 PM
                                              K12Alexko2014/08/16 03:14 AM
                                              K12juanrga2014/08/16 04:34 AM
                                                Sorry cannot share any detailsDavid Kanter2014/08/16 11:31 AM
                                                  K12, some guesses/leaksjuanrga2014/08/18 02:48 PM
                                          "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]juanrga2014/08/16 02:56 AM
                                            "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Kira2014/08/16 09:07 AM
                                              "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/16 09:56 AM
                                                "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Doug S2014/08/16 10:28 AM
                                                  "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]juanrga2014/08/16 12:01 PM
                                                    "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]tarlinian2014/08/16 01:56 PM
                                                      "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]juanrga2014/08/17 02:29 PM
                                                        "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]tarlinian2014/08/17 03:08 PM
                                                          Metal pitchesDavid Kanter2014/08/17 03:20 PM
                                                          "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]juanrga2014/08/17 04:14 PM
                                              "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]juanrga2014/08/16 11:49 AM
                                            Intel manufacturing advantage is still hereDavid Kanter2014/08/16 11:27 AM
                                              Intel manufacturing advantage is still herejuanrga2014/08/16 12:45 PM
                                                Intel manufacturing advantage is still hereDavid Kanter2014/08/16 02:16 PM
                                                  Intel manufacturing advantage is still herejuanrga2014/08/17 02:52 PM
                                                    History is very usefulDavid Kanter2014/08/17 03:18 PM
                                                      History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsjuanrga2014/08/17 04:33 PM
                                                        History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsDavid Kanter2014/08/17 06:28 PM
                                                          History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsPurana Archer2014/08/18 03:32 AM
                                                            History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsGabriele Svelto2014/08/18 08:17 AM
                                                              History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsMaynard Handley2014/08/18 01:36 PM
                                                                History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsGabriele Svelto2014/08/19 01:53 AM
                                                                History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionstarlinian2014/08/19 01:14 PM
                                                        History is very useful, but can not be used to make infallible predictionsAaron Spink2014/08/17 10:10 PM
                                                        Intel has process advantage.Jouni Osmala2014/08/18 01:36 AM
                                                          Intel has process advantage.juanrga2014/08/19 03:00 AM
                                                            Intel has process advantage.Jouni Osmala2014/08/20 04:33 AM
                                                              Intel has process advantage.dmcq2014/08/20 08:17 AM
                                                                Intel has process advantage.Michael S2014/08/20 08:58 AM
                                                                  Intel has process advantage.dmcq2014/08/20 05:11 PM
                                                                Intel has process advantage.Jouni Osmala2014/08/20 11:49 PM
                                                                  Intel has process advantage.dmcq2014/08/21 01:51 AM
                                                                    Intel has process advantage.juanrga2014/08/21 03:05 AM
                                                                  Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/21 02:15 AM
                                                                    Could you please stopDaniel B2014/08/21 04:41 AM
                                                                      Could you please stopanon2014/08/21 09:20 AM
                                                                    Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/25 12:29 PM
                                                                      Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/25 02:14 PM
                                                                        Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/25 03:11 PM
                                                                          Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/25 10:12 PM
                                                                            Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/26 02:16 AM
                                                                              Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/26 03:38 AM
                                                                                Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/26 03:52 AM
                                                                                  Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/26 03:55 AM
                                                                                    Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/26 04:07 AM
                                                                                      Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/26 04:40 AM
                                                                                        Intel process advantage is shrinkingAaron Spink2014/08/26 04:50 AM
                                                                                  Intel process advantage is shrinkingDavid Kanter2014/08/26 06:25 PM
                                                                                    Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/27 04:10 AM
                                                                                      Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/27 04:15 AM
                                                                            Intel process advantage is shrinkingMaynard Handley2014/08/26 02:49 PM
                                                                              Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/26 04:44 PM
                                                                              Intel process advantage is shrinkingKlimax2014/08/26 10:37 PM
                                                                      Intel process advantage is shrinkingDoug S2014/08/25 10:24 PM
                                                                        Intel process advantage is shrinkingdmcq2014/08/26 12:17 AM
                                                                        Intel process advantage is shrinkingjuanrga2014/08/26 02:22 AM
                                                                      Are you really that daft?Daniel B2014/08/26 05:00 AM
                                                                        Are you really that daft?Ronald Maas2014/08/26 04:37 PM
                                                                          Conservative, or just realistic?Daniel B2014/08/27 01:27 AM
                                                                      Some new data to scrap overMaynard Handley2014/08/27 01:34 PM
                                                                        Some new data to scrap overAaron Spink2014/08/27 02:21 PM
                                                                          Some new data to scrap overWilco2014/08/27 03:38 PM
                                                                            Some new data to scrap overAaron Spink2014/08/27 11:22 PM
                                                                            Some new data to scrap overgallier22014/08/28 02:26 AM
                                                                          Some new data to scrap overMaynard Handley2014/08/27 03:56 PM
                                                                            Some new data to scrap overAaron Spink2014/08/27 11:14 PM
                                                                            Some new data to scrap overgallier22014/08/28 02:42 AM
                                                                              Some new data to scrap overWilco2014/08/28 05:11 AM
                                                                        Some new data to scrap overjuanrga2014/08/27 04:35 PM
                                                                          Some new data to scrap overAaron Spink2014/08/28 12:04 AM
                                                                            Some new data to scrap overjuanrga2014/08/28 06:57 AM
                                                                        Some new data to scrap overRicardo B2014/08/29 09:14 AM
                                                Will there ever be a desktop Broadwell?Doug S2014/08/16 08:06 PM
                                                  Will there ever be a desktop Broadwell?Ricardo B2014/08/17 07:01 AM
                                                  Will there ever be a desktop Broadwell?juanrga2014/08/17 02:43 PM
                                            "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Aaron Spink2014/08/16 09:10 PM
                                              "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]dmcq2014/08/17 02:58 AM
                                              "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/17 10:06 AM
                                                "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]tarlinian2014/08/17 10:40 AM
                                                  "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/17 12:37 PM
                                                    "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]tarlinian2014/08/17 01:12 PM
                                                    "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Alberto2014/08/17 01:12 PM
                                                    "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Michael S2014/08/17 01:15 PM
                                                      "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/17 01:45 PM
                                                        "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Michael S2014/08/17 02:13 PM
                                                        "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]David Kanter2014/08/17 03:29 PM
                                                          "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/17 04:10 PM
                                                            "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]tarlinian2014/08/17 05:08 PM
                                                            "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Klimax2014/08/17 10:42 PM
                                                              "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Maynard Handley2014/08/18 01:21 PM
                                                            "Intel no longer has an obvious lead in process technology" [electronicsweekly]Alberto2014/08/18 04:19 AM
                                                            Die Size matters a LOT!Jouni Osmala2014/08/18 01:21 PM
                                        I agreeDavid Hess2014/08/17 03:24 PM
                                      I agreeRonald Maas2014/08/15 11:14 PM
                                        I agreedmcq2014/08/16 03:53 AM
                                          Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/16 04:55 AM
                                            Beyond web serversdmcq2014/08/16 05:40 AM
                                              Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/16 11:43 AM
                                                Beyond web serversAaron Spink2014/08/16 10:07 PM
                                                  Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/17 02:35 PM
                                                    Beyond web serversAaron Spink2014/08/17 04:24 PM
                                                      Beyond web serversdmcq2014/08/18 05:50 AM
                                                        Beyond web serversAaron Spink2014/08/18 03:58 PM
                                            Beyond web serversMichael S2014/08/16 12:43 PM
                                              Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/16 12:55 PM
                                                Beyond web serversMichael S2014/08/16 01:04 PM
                                                  Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/17 08:19 AM
                                                    Beyond web serversrwessel2014/08/17 09:34 AM
                                                    Beyond web serversDavid Kanter2014/08/17 10:23 AM
                                                      Beyond web serversMichael S2014/08/17 11:04 AM
                                                        Beyond web serversRicardo B2014/08/17 11:37 AM
                                                          Beyond web serversDavid Kanter2014/08/17 12:31 PM
                                                      Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/17 04:59 PM
                                                        Beyond web serversDavid Kanter2014/08/17 06:42 PM
                                                          Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/18 02:39 PM
                                              Beyond web serversGabriele Svelto2014/08/16 11:33 PM
                                                Beyond web serversRonald Maas2014/08/17 09:06 AM
                                                  Amdahl's law (NT)Michael S2014/08/17 11:08 AM
                                                Beyond web serversjuanrga2014/08/17 02:41 PM
                                      Xeon-class performancePaul A. Clayton2014/08/16 10:31 AM
                                        Xeon-class performancejuanrga2014/08/16 11:53 AM
                                          Xeon-class performanceKlimax2014/08/17 02:29 PM
                              Design targets aren't datadistantobserver2014/08/16 12:22 PM
                      x86 theoretical limit on maximum performance.Kevin G2014/08/10 10:26 PM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/10 05:25 PM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechDavid Kanter2014/08/10 09:15 PM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechExophase2014/08/10 10:03 PM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/11 12:33 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechnone2014/08/11 01:35 AM
                              A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechnope2014/08/11 02:05 AM
                              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/11 04:02 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechRicardo B2014/08/11 04:04 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/11 08:10 AM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 08:44 PM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechGabriele Svelto2014/08/10 12:37 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/10 06:07 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 05:13 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechGabriele Svelto2014/08/11 12:08 PM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 09:32 PM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 03:11 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/10 05:27 PM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 11:30 PM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 03:56 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/11 05:23 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 06:29 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/11 08:30 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 08:46 PM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/12 05:48 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMegol2014/08/13 09:25 AM
                              A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/13 04:55 PM
          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechDavid Kanter2014/08/08 11:36 PM
            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/09 12:12 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechdmcq2014/08/09 03:00 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/09 03:54 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/10 09:50 PM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechExophase2014/08/10 10:35 PM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 04:20 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/11 12:48 AM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 04:10 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/11 05:43 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/11 06:21 AM
            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/09 06:38 AM
              ISA doesn't matterDavid Kanter2014/08/09 10:50 AM
                ISA doesn't matterBrett2014/08/09 11:51 AM
                  ISA doesn't matterLinus Torvalds2014/08/09 01:36 PM
                    ISA doesn't matterBrett2014/08/09 10:37 PM
                      ISA doesn't matterMichael S2014/08/10 02:21 AM
                        ISA doesn't matterdmcq2014/08/10 04:06 AM
                        ISA doesn't matterBrett2014/08/10 02:21 PM
                          ISA doesn't matteranon2014/08/10 09:03 PM
                            ISA doesn't matterBrett2014/08/10 11:45 PM
                              ISA doesn't matterAaron Spink2014/08/11 12:57 AM
                              ISA doesn't matteranon2014/08/11 04:18 AM
                                ISA doesn't matterBrett2014/08/16 03:38 PM
                              ISA doesn't matter -- PARMAook2014/08/26 11:50 AM
                          IBM fab business is losing money, the POWER line is notMark Roulo2014/08/11 07:44 AM
                    ISA doesn't matterTREZA2014/08/10 04:27 AM
                    ISA doesn't matterjuanrga2014/08/10 05:34 AM
                      ISA doesn't matterMichael S2014/08/10 06:01 AM
                        ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/11 07:28 PM
                          ISA does matterMichael S2014/08/12 01:20 AM
                            ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/12 02:38 AM
                              ISA does matterAaron Spink2014/08/12 03:06 AM
                                ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/12 03:27 AM
                                  ISA does matterUngo2014/08/12 03:28 PM
                                    ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/12 03:43 PM
                                      Banning of Juanrgagallier22014/08/13 08:56 AM
                                        bad idea (NT)Michael S2014/08/13 09:02 AM
                      ISA doesn't matterAaron Spink2014/08/10 07:48 AM
                      Best *Student* Paper Paul A. Clayton2014/08/10 12:31 PM
                ISA doesn't matterjuanrga2014/08/10 04:32 AM
                  ISA doesn't matterWilco2014/08/10 05:48 AM
                    ISA doesn't matterLinus Torvalds2014/08/10 11:38 AM
                      ISA doesn't matterUngo2014/08/11 03:59 PM
                ISA doesn't matterEtienne2014/08/11 07:17 AM
                  ISA doesn't matterGabriele Svelto2014/08/12 11:31 PM
                    ISA doesn't matterEtienne2014/08/13 03:09 AM
          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/09 03:44 AM
            A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/09 06:43 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechanon2014/08/09 10:17 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/09 12:38 PM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAlberto2014/08/09 01:41 PM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/09 01:49 PM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAlberto2014/08/09 02:13 PM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/09 02:30 PM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAlberto2014/08/09 03:15 PM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechcarop2014/08/10 02:01 AM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/10 04:50 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 06:23 AM
                              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/10 06:38 AM
                                Thank you (NT)Michael S2014/08/10 07:16 AM
                                Nope, Samsung ARM cpu was canned.Alberto2014/08/11 02:57 AM
                                  Nope, Samsung ARM cpu was canned.Wilco2014/08/11 03:14 AM
                                  Nope, Samsung ARM cpu was canned.David Hess2014/08/11 11:56 AM
                                    Nope, Samsung ARM cpu was canned.juanrga2014/08/11 07:32 PM
                              ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/11 07:34 PM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/10 06:19 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/09 03:10 PM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 03:01 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAlberto2014/08/10 06:17 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/10 03:40 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 04:27 AM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/10 05:00 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 05:50 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/10 06:51 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/10 08:04 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/10 08:30 AM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/10 08:46 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechWilco2014/08/11 05:37 PM
                              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/12 01:58 AM
                                A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/12 02:11 AM
                                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/12 02:22 AM
                                    A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/12 02:40 AM
                                Applied Micro systems not benchmarkedDavid Kanter2014/08/13 11:29 AM
                                  Applied Micro systems not benchmarkedjuanrga2014/08/13 11:51 AM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 08:48 AM
                            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/10 09:19 AM
                    A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechjuanrga2014/08/10 06:00 AM
                      A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/10 06:18 AM
                        A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechJouni Osmala2014/08/10 02:12 PM
                          A strong answer to this crap article on Extremetechdmcq2014/08/10 02:43 PM
          A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechRonald Maas2014/08/10 10:56 PM
            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechpTmd2014/08/11 12:57 AM
            A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechAaron Spink2014/08/11 01:02 AM
              ISA importance and bike sheddingPaul A. Clayton2014/08/11 02:39 AM
              A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechJouni Osmala2014/08/11 03:43 AM
                A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechMichael S2014/08/11 05:56 AM
                  A strong answer to this crap article on ExtremetechJouni Osmala2014/08/11 12:14 PM
            ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/11 07:48 PM
              ISA does matterUngo2014/08/12 04:37 PM
                ISA does matterjuanrga2014/08/13 05:18 AM
            Look at the system level, ISA doesn't matterDavid Kanter2014/08/13 11:47 AM
              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Mark Roulo2014/08/14 08:30 AM
                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...juanrga2014/08/16 04:29 AM
                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/16 09:35 AM
                    POWER guys commented on this years ago ...juanrga2014/08/16 11:35 AM
                    POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/16 12:55 PM
                      POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/16 02:24 PM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/16 02:54 PM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/16 03:56 PM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/16 03:02 PM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...David Kanter2014/08/16 04:09 PM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/16 05:43 PM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/16 06:35 PM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/16 07:17 PM
                              OS/2Ricardo B2014/08/16 07:20 PM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...rwessel2014/08/16 09:36 PM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/17 12:24 PM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/17 01:41 PM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Gabriele Svelto2014/08/18 02:20 AM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...rwessel2014/08/16 09:43 PM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/16 11:30 PM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/17 06:28 AM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/16 10:25 PM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/17 12:10 AM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/17 12:42 AM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/17 03:40 AM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/17 06:43 AM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/17 07:53 AM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/17 07:42 AM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ronald Maas2014/08/17 09:57 AM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...rwessel2014/08/17 10:40 AM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/17 12:06 PM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/17 01:56 PM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/17 02:22 PM
                                    POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Ricardo B2014/08/17 03:14 PM
                                      cheap membarsMichael S2014/08/17 05:56 PM
                                        cheap membarsnksingh2014/08/21 11:34 AM
                                          cheap membarsMichael S2014/08/21 12:31 PM
                                            cheap membarsnksingh2014/08/21 02:54 PM
                                              cheap membarsMichael S2014/08/21 06:40 PM
                                            cheap membarsanon2014/08/21 11:17 PM
                                              cheap membarsMichael S2014/08/22 03:16 AM
                                                cheap membarsanon2014/08/22 07:33 AM
                                                  cheap membarsMichael S2014/08/22 08:18 AM
                                                    cheap membarsanon2014/08/22 05:50 PM
                                                      cheap membarsPatrick Chase2014/08/24 11:06 AM
                                                        cheap membarsPatrick Chase2014/08/24 11:11 AM
                                                          cheap membarsanon2014/08/24 07:21 PM
                                                            cheap membarsPatrick Chase2014/08/25 11:02 AM
                                                              cheap membarsdmcq2014/08/30 02:15 AM
                                      POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/17 10:55 PM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Howard Chu2014/08/28 09:17 PM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/29 07:35 AM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/29 08:34 AM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/29 03:49 PM
                                    POWER guys commented on this years ago ...foobar2014/08/30 09:26 PM
                                      POWER guys commented on this years ago ...dmcq2014/08/31 04:54 AM
                                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Wilco2014/08/31 12:52 PM
                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/17 09:52 AM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Maynard Handley2014/08/17 10:31 AM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Gabriele Svelto2014/08/18 02:11 AM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...nksingh2014/08/25 03:55 AM
                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Patrick Chase2014/08/25 11:15 AM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Patrick Chase2014/08/25 11:23 AM
                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...nksingh2014/08/25 09:26 PM
                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Patrick Chase2014/08/25 11:32 PM
                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/26 04:41 AM
                                    POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/26 06:06 AM
                                      POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/26 05:27 PM
                                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/26 11:02 PM
                                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Aaron Spink2014/08/26 11:51 PM
                                            POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/28 08:25 PM
                                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/28 10:45 PM
                                              POWER guys commented on this years ago ...rwessel2014/08/29 01:14 AM
                                                POWER guys commented on this years ago ...anon2014/08/29 03:49 AM
                                                  POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Michael S2014/08/29 06:43 AM
                                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...nksingh2014/08/26 11:54 PM
                                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...dmcq2014/08/27 02:29 AM
                                          POWER guys commented on this years ago ...dmcq2014/08/27 08:16 AM
                                    Idiom recognition for LL/SC?Paul A. Clayton2014/08/26 01:28 PM
                        POWER guys commented on this years ago ...Gabriele Svelto2014/08/16 11:22 PM
                      AltiVec was Power6 (NT)Kira2014/08/17 11:33 AM
                        AltiVec was Power6Maynard Handley2014/08/17 12:29 PM
                          AltiVec was Power6Kira2014/08/17 12:53 PM
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