Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?

By: Patrick Chase (patrickjchase.delete@this.gmail.com), November 14, 2014 2:30 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on November 14, 2014 1:42 pm wrote:
> Patrick Chase (patrickjchase.delete@this.gmail.com) on November 14, 2014 10:47 am wrote:
> >
> > The P6 lineage ended with Nehalem. Sandy Bridge is, like
> > P4, an entirely different sort of beast. I would go
> > so far as to say that SB is more similar to P4 (another PRF machine with a uop cache) than it is to Nehalem.
>
> Hmm. Only very superficially.
>
> The "uop cache" on Sandybridge is a pre-decoded instruction cache, while the P4 was a
> trace cache. By calling them both "uop caches" you make them sound much more
> similar than they actually are.
>
> Also, the instruction decode flow in Nehalem vs SB is actually very similar, despite the
> added uop cache. I'd say that SB clearly added a uop cache to what looks very much like
> the Nehalem front-end, which in turn looks fairly clearly like a "improved P6 instruction
> decoder". Things were comopletely different in P4, with the single decoder.
>
> Also, the memory pipeline - imnsho one of the really fundamental parts of the core -
> is totally different in P4 vs SB, while SB/NH are clearly related. Sure, SB is a big
> improvement with the whole dual read ports, so it's not nearly the same, but I think
> you can clearly see how it's an evolution of the other.
>
> I think the PRF is a relatively minor difference in that picture. Yes, it is obviously
> very central to the core, and sure, you can "bin" P4 and SB together by saying that they
> both use a physical register file, but I really think that's a pretty small detail in
> the big picture.

Spoken like a software person :-).

Seriously, we're looking at things on very different levels here. Consider 3 examples from a completely different field of endeavor:

1. A watercolor portrait
2. An oil landscape
3. An oil portrait

Now, is (3) more similar to (1) or to (2)?

I will say this: From a design re-use perspective all of the cores in the P6 line up until Nehalem were clearly derivatives of one another. Sandy Bridge was a huge departure, and IMO represents the beginning of an entirely new lineage.

Yes, SB's execution unit mix and memory pipelines are superficially (i.e. as seen by SW) similar to Nehalem (and that was probably intentional on Intel's part), but internally it's by necessity a very different animal.
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                            Vaguely reminscent of Sun's Rock (NT)Paul A. Clayton2014/10/29 08:56 PM
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                            Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/30 12:16 PM
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                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?ex-apple2014/10/29 08:15 AM
                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/10/30 08:51 AM
                            But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/10/31 05:34 PM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/10/31 10:26 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/01 11:07 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/01 12:25 PM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/01 03:26 PM
                                    But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/08 04:10 PM
                                      But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/09 12:08 AM
                                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/09 01:51 AM
                                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/09 02:05 AM
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                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/11 08:21 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Kevin G2014/11/11 09:38 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/11 10:50 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/14 04:20 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/14 04:36 PM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/16 02:06 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/11 06:34 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?rwessel2014/11/11 09:48 PM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/12 02:29 AM
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                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Doug S2014/11/12 08:41 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/13 05:57 PM
                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapsomeone2014/11/14 08:20 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/14 10:41 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 12:09 PM
                                                              Northwood P4 was definitely not crapslacker2014/11/14 04:19 PM
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                                                                  Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 07:35 PM
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                                                                      Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/15 12:35 PM
                                                                        Northwood P4 was definitely not crapBrett2014/11/15 02:53 PM
                                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/16 12:00 AM
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                                                              Northwood P4 was still crap, beating much smaller severely memory limited K7 did not make it non-craGabriele Svelto2014/11/14 02:35 PM
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                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 05:48 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthDan Fay2014/11/12 12:38 PM
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                                                          Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 08:37 PM
                                                            Fireball ALUs were not half widthRicardo B2014/11/13 06:19 AM
                                                              Fireball ALUs were not half widthMichael S2014/11/13 06:49 AM
                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthCharles2014/11/13 04:00 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/13 07:44 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Michael S2014/11/13 08:13 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/14 12:53 AM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 10:47 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/14 01:42 PM
                                                            Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 02:30 PM
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                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brendan2014/11/13 11:40 PM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?anon2014/11/14 02:43 AM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 11:07 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?none2014/11/15 06:35 AM
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                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/16 04:31 PM
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                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDavid Kanter2014/11/16 09:39 PM
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                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:07 AM
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                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 03:02 PM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 03:25 PM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 05:00 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsenone2014/11/18 12:59 AM
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                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAlberto2014/11/19 02:55 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsegallier22014/11/18 01:55 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/19 10:22 AM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/19 10:31 AM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/20 09:33 AM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 10:14 AM
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                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 12:23 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:59 PM
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                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/23 11:24 AM
                                                                                              What I hope is only a slight tangentTerry A Gray2014/11/23 03:42 PM
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                                                                                                VAX could HAVE made it...gallier22014/11/24 08:26 AM
                                                                                                John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Roulo2014/11/24 04:17 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Rouo2014/11/24 04:21 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Linus Torvalds2014/11/24 06:17 PM
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                                                                                                    Another bump in complexity...David Kanter2014/11/25 11:02 AM
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                                                                                                    John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/25 04:34 PM
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                                                                                                        Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/11/30 07:23 PM
                                                                                                          Yet another form of "worse is better" ?dmcq2014/12/01 02:08 AM
                                                                                                            Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Jouni Osmala2014/12/01 11:19 PM
                                                                                                              Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/12/02 01:54 PM
                                                                                                                Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Stunk2014/12/03 01:45 PM
                                                                                                Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/25 04:40 AM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationPeter Lund2014/11/27 01:13 PM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationRonald Maas2014/11/29 09:58 AM
                                                                                                    Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/30 03:08 AM
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                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/20 11:13 AM
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                                                                                          GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopPaul A. Clayton2014/11/21 05:29 AM
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                                                                                  Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Kira2014/11/20 07:35 AM
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                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:52 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/17 08:11 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 07:20 AM
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                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 08:10 PM
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                                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 05:45 PM
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                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 10:56 AM
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                                      The x86 core is Zenjuanrga2014/11/09 06:44 AM
                                        The x86 core is Zendmcq2014/11/16 05:09 AM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?Ken H2014/11/02 09:54 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/03 12:29 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Heikki Kultala2014/11/04 05:01 AM
                                  Bulldozer design 'stupidity'Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 09:16 AM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'juanrga2014/11/04 12:14 PM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'h2014/11/04 01:14 PM
                                      Bulldozer module as drop-in macro?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 01:26 PM
                                      Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Heikki Kultala2014/11/16 11:12 PM
                                        Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Y2014/11/18 10:06 AM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/11/04 12:18 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Exophase2014/11/09 08:01 PM
                      Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 09:20 AM
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          Are they on 28 nm?ex-apple2014/10/26 04:47 PM
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    Why? (NT)Megol2014/10/25 12:46 PM
    Soft Machines investor backstoryex-apple2014/10/28 09:30 PM
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