Northwood P4 was definitely not crap

By: Brett (ggtgp.delete@this.yahoo.com), November 15, 2014 2:53 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on November 15, 2014 12:35 pm wrote:
> Brett (ggtgp.delete@this.yahoo.com) on November 14, 2014 9:11 pm wrote:
> >
> > The P4 did well in the high profit workstation and HPC markets
>
> BS.
>
> The P4 was what allowed Opteron to flourish. Saying that the P4 did well in the high profits margin
> is clearly completely anti-historical, since exactly thanks to P4 (and Intel trying to push Itanium),
> we actually had AMD dominating the true high-profit areas for the first time ever.

You are correct, but I am also, though I phrased it wrong. I was talking about Intel's goals, to attack the high end with a high clock design that did well on well predicted branches. Give an engineer a goal like that and he will dump everything he can from the design monster that was the previous chips, like 16 bit register half aliasing, to simplify down to a simple fast pipe.

This means legacy 16 bit code was going to suck, tuff cookies, this is a high end design.
Intel thought it had monopoly lock in with it's existing customers, (AMD is a cat toy) and putting the remaining RISC chips out of business, that threatened Intel's future, was more important.

> > But to get high bin parts you need volumes, the desktop is where the volumes are.
> > Intel did not care that the P4 was a crap design for the desktop, the desktop
> > peasants will just have to buy what Intel sells at prices Intel dictates.
>
> I really don't understand how people - first someone, now you - can simply ignore
> that very clear piece of information. The P4 allowed AMD to flourish. This isn't
> some random theoretical argument, this is undeniable historical fact.

AMD did not care about RISC chips, AMD cared about x86 legacy performance. Also cared about not getting locked out on the 64 bit transition, so they designed a 64 bit chip first.

> Just look at the facts, for chrissake! Look at them! Look at what happened when Intel came out with the
> PPro core, and look at what happened when Intel put its muscles behind the "Core" series of cores.

Intel hit the clock wall, and with shrinks more transistors become available, so you can add back everything you dumped from the design. After looking at what is actually best for the next design you see that something similar to the old core is actually better than the P4. Hindsight is 20 20.

> Compare that to what happened during the heydays of P4.
>
> Why the hell are you ignoring this kind of clear historical market data?
>
> The P4 was a horrible core for Intel. Saying it was a success is clearly bogus. That was even more
> the case in the high-profit-margin parts of the industry, completely invalidating your argument.

Intel killed off it's remaining RISC chip competitors, that is a success, though I believe that was going to happen anyway. There is a certain irony that it was actually AMD that killed off the RISC chips with a 64 bit design.

The net effect is that Intel had some temporary competition from the cat toy AMD, the mouse that roared before it was killed and eaten. Tell me again how this is somehow horrible.

AMD has high debts and is down to $600 million in unprofitable PC revenue, half of AMD's pitiful revenue is embedded now.

The crooks on Wall Street are trying to find suckers to buy AMD's 9% junk bonds.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2669895-amds-high-yielding-bonds-now-offer-8-percent-to-9-percent

When history is written AMD will go down as a footnote no different than DEC's irrelevant competitors. Tell me again how this is somehow horrible, for Intel.

> The only time AMD did well in HPC was very much in the glory days of Opteron. And yes,
> it took the market a few years to really notice, so you have to take that into account timing-wise,
> but that's obvious and only to be expected. It's not like these things turn on a dime. There
> were decades of "Intel is the safe choice" for businesses to unlearn.

The company that eats AMD will make an attempt at ARM64 servers, and will keep selling desktop and laptop chips to stop Intel from absurd levels of profit shifting.

No the FTC will not hand Intel an actual written monopoly due to the change of control at AMD, and those agreements with Intel. It's not like all the patents that matter have not expired anyway.

If I am wrong then AMD will declare bankruptcy first, a bankruptcy judge has the ability to throw contracts out the window.

Intel has found a way to delay the attack of the killer $15 SOC's, $99 windows tablets, this sucks the high end profits out of the android tablet market. Not that there were any to begin with, but it is hard to justify designing a high end ARM64 chip if there are no profits to be had for ROE.
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            How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?none2014/10/25 02:15 PM
              jazelleHeikki Kultala2014/10/26 12:18 AM
      Soft MachinesPatrick Chase2014/10/24 01:27 PM
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          Soft MachinesPatrick Chase2014/10/28 10:59 AM
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        SemiAccurate on Soft Machinesdmcq2014/10/24 03:55 AM
        Are they on 28 nm?Kevin G2014/10/26 04:23 PM
          Are they on 28 nm?ex-apple2014/10/26 04:47 PM
      Soft Machinessomeone2014/10/24 08:53 AM
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  Soft Machines investorsMichael S2014/10/25 11:06 AM
    Why? (NT)Megol2014/10/25 12:46 PM
    Soft Machines investor backstoryex-apple2014/10/28 09:30 PM
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