There he goes again on his favorite hobby horse

By: No one (no.delete@this.one.com), November 18, 2014 7:25 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
someone (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com) on November 17, 2014 8:10 pm wrote:
> Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on November 17, 2014 5:38 pm wrote:
> > someone (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com) on November 17, 2014 7:20 am wrote:
> > >
> > > So once again I challenge you to reference a single paper written by Intel and/or HP Itanium technical
> > > staff which includes misleading statements/representations of the type that you claim
> >
> > What, the slides from hotchips that I already showed as an example of this disease didn't count?
> > They were *so* misleading that you should be embarrassed for the people who wrote them.
> >
> > And they sure as hell were all about inflating CPI artificially any way
> > you could. Not just with speculative work (which they even talk about)
> >
> > Which part are you really objecting to?
> >
> > The fact that Itanium "CPI" numbers are fundamentally inflated
> > due to speculative work done by the compiler?
> > I'm not making that up. That's just a fact. That's how the
> > whole architecture was designed - the whole predication
> > and advanced loads are what made Itanium unique, and the only reason for them is SW speculation.
> >
> > The fact that people touted the high-IPC nature of Itanium? Including, very much, Intel people.
> > Go look at the slides I already posted, for chrissake. I didn't make that up either. They even
> > show how they had more instructions than alpha, just look at the graph. And let me quote from
> > that thing (from Intel): "About 20--30% of loads are speculative in Intel binaries".
>
> Ok, at least you are pointing to something specific, the McCormick/Knies paper from Hotchips 2002
> that looked at IPF characteristics running SPEC CPU2K with both the Intel and HP compiler.
>
> So you don't understand the second slide where it says "Number of useful instructions (shown in
> blue) +/- 1% of Alpha? It clearly doesn't include "predicate false" or "Nop" as useful instructions
> that you have accused "Itanium people" of doing.
>
> As far as speculative loads in Intel binaries go, even with that BOTH the Intel and HP compiled
> versions execute about 30% fewer loads and stores than Alpha (including implicit IPF RSE
> transfers). That is an architectural benefit from the IPF architecture (overlapping register file
> addressing combined with register stack engine). Funny how you point out something that
> is an actual win for Itanium. The total number of memory accesses performed by the Intel
> compiled code is a tiny bit less than that of the HP compiled version.
>
> You know very well that program execution length is a function of both program and compiler
> (including optimization settings) for ALL architectures. Different compilers compiling the
> same program can have a very different execution length. Have a look at what a DEC Unix
> compiler generates for Alpha EV6 versus what gcc does. The former inserts NOPs to better
> use the EV6's issue model. Was this dishonesty on DEC's part to pump up IPC? The funny
> thing is that the longer length Unix compiled program ran faster than the gcc version that
> was more compact but split issue like crazy. Deal with it.

Funny, Paul DeMone made exactly these same arguments about Itanium and Alpha on comp.arch 13 years ago: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch/emtg1yq1n-M/ZAi2QM9g5NwJ

> >
> > So that thing - that I already quoted for you - very much showed
> > that whole "let's show great CPI with our speculative work".
> >
> > The fact that should make you extra embarrassed for it is
> > that whole "Useful IPC counted using 'unstalled cycles'"
> > part, which takes the whole "let's inflate our CPI" to absolutely
> > ridiculous levels. You might even call it "lying",
> > since it has absolutely nothing to do with "CPI", and even less to do with the word "useful".
>
> That is interesting information related to available ILP in the compiled code, not an evil plot.
> The previous slide told you all you need to know. Even if *you* are too stupid to understand this
> a handful of slides earlier had this: "Compilers find 2.5-3.0 IPC in integer apps (even beyond SPEC)
> • Dynamic delays reduce this to 1.3 achieved for CPU2000 integer". There it is quite clear
> for even idiots to see.
>
> >
> > So what the heck is your beef? Just the fact that I'm a well-known hippie ("I did it before it
> > was cool") Itanium detractor, and I happened to be right in my disdain for the piece of sh*t?
> >
>
> My beef is you are the biggest fucking hypocrite on this board. You routinely attack other
> posters in very ad hominem fashion for unsubstantiated opinions yet when it comes to Itanium
> and a few other topics you are at least as guilty those folks in spreading odious prejudice/
> misunderstanding/sheer ignorance as fact. Worse yet, you routinely return to spurious claims
> about Itanium that have been clearly and authoritatively debunked years previously. A good
> spin on that is you are forgetful. The less charitable is you are so biased on this topic that
> you'll routinely resort to intellectual dishonesty to push your opinion and hope no one will
> bother call you out on it *yet again*. I know which version I lean towards.
>
< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
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                            But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/10/31 05:34 PM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/10/31 10:26 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/01 11:07 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/01 12:25 PM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/01 03:26 PM
                                    But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/08 04:10 PM
                                      But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/09 12:08 AM
                                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/09 01:51 AM
                                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/09 02:05 AM
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                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 05:48 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthDan Fay2014/11/12 12:38 PM
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                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/16 04:31 PM
                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/16 05:17 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDavid Kanter2014/11/16 09:39 PM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/16 11:24 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:07 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 12:40 PM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 02:00 PM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 03:02 PM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 03:25 PM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 05:00 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsenone2014/11/18 12:59 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/18 11:18 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAlberto2014/11/19 02:55 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsegallier22014/11/18 01:55 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/19 10:22 AM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/19 10:31 AM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/20 09:33 AM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 10:14 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 11:30 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 12:10 PM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 12:23 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:59 PM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:45 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/23 11:24 AM
                                                                                              What I hope is only a slight tangentTerry A Gray2014/11/23 03:42 PM
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                                                                                                VAX could HAVE made it...gallier22014/11/24 08:26 AM
                                                                                                John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Roulo2014/11/24 04:17 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Rouo2014/11/24 04:21 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Linus Torvalds2014/11/24 06:17 PM
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                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/25 02:08 AM
                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Yuhong Bao2014/11/25 10:12 PM
                                                                                                        Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/26 09:02 AM
                                                                                                    Another bump in complexity...David Kanter2014/11/25 11:02 AM
                                                                                                      Another bump in complexity...Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:51 PM
                                                                                                    John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/25 04:34 PM
                                                                                                      John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:48 PM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:56 PM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/27 04:04 PM
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                                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseRonald Maas2014/11/24 07:13 PM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/24 11:48 PM
                                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 01:10 PM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/28 01:52 AM
                                                                                                    68k line decoding and opcodesBrett2014/11/28 10:42 AM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/28 04:42 PM
                                                                                                      Yet another form of "worse is better" ? (NT)Michael S2014/11/29 12:12 PM
                                                                                                        Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/11/30 07:23 PM
                                                                                                          Yet another form of "worse is better" ?dmcq2014/12/01 02:08 AM
                                                                                                            Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Jouni Osmala2014/12/01 11:19 PM
                                                                                                              Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/12/02 01:54 PM
                                                                                                                Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Stunk2014/12/03 01:45 PM
                                                                                                Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/25 04:40 AM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationPeter Lund2014/11/27 01:13 PM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationRonald Maas2014/11/29 09:58 AM
                                                                                                    Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/30 03:08 AM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 01:03 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/20 11:13 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 11:34 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:39 PM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/21 03:30 AM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/21 10:33 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/21 03:49 AM
                                                                                          GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopPaul A. Clayton2014/11/21 05:29 AM
                                                                                            GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopLinus Torvalds2014/11/21 10:14 AM
                                                                                Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Mark Roulo2014/11/19 11:17 AM
                                                                                  Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Kira2014/11/20 07:35 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDuane2014/11/19 11:57 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/17 04:14 PM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:52 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/17 08:11 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 07:20 AM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/17 05:38 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 08:10 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseNo one2014/11/18 07:25 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/18 10:32 AM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/18 11:39 AM
                                                              Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/15 03:00 PM
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                                                          How many CPU cores?mpx2014/11/13 04:25 AM
                                                            immediate? (NT)Michael S2014/11/13 05:00 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/13 11:40 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Ricardo B2014/11/14 07:39 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/13 10:19 PM
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                                                                      How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 07:06 AM
                                                                        How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/10 07:14 AM
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                                                                    How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/11 03:16 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/10 02:10 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 07:07 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Konrad Schwarz2014/12/10 09:23 AM
                                      The x86 core is Zenjuanrga2014/11/09 06:44 AM
                                        The x86 core is Zendmcq2014/11/16 05:09 AM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?Ken H2014/11/02 09:54 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/03 12:29 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Heikki Kultala2014/11/04 05:01 AM
                                  Bulldozer design 'stupidity'Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 09:16 AM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'juanrga2014/11/04 12:14 PM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'h2014/11/04 01:14 PM
                                      Bulldozer module as drop-in macro?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 01:26 PM
                                      Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Heikki Kultala2014/11/16 11:12 PM
                                        Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Y2014/11/18 10:06 AM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/11/04 12:18 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Exophase2014/11/09 08:01 PM
                      Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 09:20 AM
  Soft MachinesGabriele Svelto2014/10/23 02:09 PM
    Soft MachinesMaynard Handley2014/10/23 02:29 PM
    Soft Machinesex-apple2014/10/23 02:32 PM
      Soft MachinesSteve2014/10/24 09:37 AM
        How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?ex-apple2014/10/24 12:08 PM
          How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?mpx2014/10/25 04:37 AM
            How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?none2014/10/25 02:15 PM
              jazelleHeikki Kultala2014/10/26 12:18 AM
      Soft MachinesPatrick Chase2014/10/24 01:27 PM
        Soft Machinesjuanrga2014/10/25 02:34 AM
          Soft MachinesPatrick Chase2014/10/28 10:59 AM
    Soft MachinesKira2014/10/23 02:48 PM
      SemiAccurate on Soft Machinesex-apple2014/10/23 05:17 PM
        SemiAccurate on Soft MachinesBrendan2014/10/24 12:49 AM
        SemiAccurate on Soft Machinesdmcq2014/10/24 03:55 AM
        Are they on 28 nm?Kevin G2014/10/26 04:23 PM
          Are they on 28 nm?ex-apple2014/10/26 04:47 PM
      Soft Machinessomeone2014/10/24 08:53 AM
    pipeline lengthHeikki Kultala2014/10/24 12:50 AM
  Soft MachinesKira2014/10/23 02:31 PM
  Soft Machinesjust some guy2014/10/24 04:50 AM
    Soft MachinesMr. Camel2014/10/24 10:16 AM
  Soft Machines investorsMichael S2014/10/25 11:06 AM
    Why? (NT)Megol2014/10/25 12:46 PM
    Soft Machines investor backstoryex-apple2014/10/28 09:30 PM
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