There he goes again on his favorite hobby horse

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), November 18, 2014 9:32 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
someone (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com) on November 17, 2014 8:10 pm wrote:
> >
> > The fact that should make you extra embarrassed for it is
> > that whole "Useful IPC counted using 'unstalled cycles'"
> > part, which takes the whole "let's inflate our CPI" to absolutely
> > ridiculous levels. You might even call it "lying",
> > since it has absolutely nothing to do with "CPI", and even less to do with the word "useful".
>
> That is interesting information related to available ILP in the compiled code, not an evil plot.

No it's not. And that's exactly what I'm arguing against. Christ, 'somebody', did you not even follow the whole argument?

The whole issue was exactly that people doing wide machines lie to themselves and others, by ignoring the fact that those wide machines also lose a lot of instructions when they stall. That was what this all started with, and it wasn't even me who made the argument, I just replied "Amen" to Patrick Chase.

And that Itanium paper is a perfect example of that kind of lying. It's talking up some theoretical IPC that has absolutely nothing to do with any reality, exactly by talking up the IPC and ignoring the costs of stalls.

In reality, Itanium had no greater IPC than anybody else. Anybody who in a paper talks about IPC values in the 2+ range is simply lying.

So give it up. You're the one who asked for examples from Intel or HP. I gave them to you. You're the one who cannot face reality here.

This is classic VLIW apologia, and exactly what I was talking about. And yes, EPIC made it worse by making the instruction packing (let's not call it IPC, because it damn well isn't, whatever the Intel and HP performance engineers said!) look better by using speculation.

Christ. Give it up. Why am I even responding to your crap?

The fact is, Itanium had bad performance, and had worse IPC than an out-of-order machine woudl have had. People who claim it had good IPC were either lying (and dammit, that Intel/HP paper really is at least "actively misleading" by calling it "CPI", if you think the "L" word is too harsh). Often by ignoring the costs of stalls. Exactly like in that paper!.

And when they weren't actively ignoring stalls and/or speculative instructions, they were ignoring the low frequency.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
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                        Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 06:58 AM
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                            Vaguely reminscent of Sun's Rock (NT)Paul A. Clayton2014/10/29 07:56 PM
                          Soft Machines Inventionsjuanrga2014/10/30 07:00 AM
                            Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/30 11:16 AM
                              Soft Machines Inventionsjuanrga2014/10/30 11:52 AM
                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?ex-apple2014/10/29 07:15 AM
                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/10/30 07:51 AM
                            But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/10/31 04:34 PM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/10/31 09:26 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/01 10:07 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/01 11:25 AM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/01 02:26 PM
                                    But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/08 03:10 PM
                                      But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/08 11:08 PM
                                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/09 12:51 AM
                                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/09 01:05 AM
                                          How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/09 08:19 AM
                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/09 12:46 PM
                                              How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/09 01:43 PM
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                                                  How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/09 11:43 PM
                                                    How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/10 05:19 PM
                                                      How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/11 01:19 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/11/11 01:50 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/11 07:20 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/11 08:23 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/11 03:21 PM
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                                                                    How many CPU cores?none2014/11/12 03:26 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?David Kanter nli2014/11/12 02:10 PM
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                                                  How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/10 06:09 PM
                                                How many CPU cores?none2014/11/10 07:36 AM
                                              How many CPU cores?Charles2014/11/11 03:56 AM
                                                How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/11/11 06:22 AM
                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/11 07:21 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Kevin G2014/11/11 08:38 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/11 09:50 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/14 03:20 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/14 03:36 PM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/16 01:06 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/11 05:34 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?rwessel2014/11/11 08:48 PM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/12 01:29 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Michael S2014/11/12 02:02 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Doug S2014/11/12 07:41 PM
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                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapsomeone2014/11/14 07:20 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/14 09:41 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 11:09 AM
                                                              Northwood P4 was definitely not crapslacker2014/11/14 03:19 PM
                                                                Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 05:28 PM
                                                                  Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 06:35 PM
                                                                    Northwood P4 was definitely not crapBrett2014/11/14 08:11 PM
                                                                      Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/15 11:35 AM
                                                                        Northwood P4 was definitely not crapBrett2014/11/15 01:53 PM
                                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/15 11:00 PM
                                                            Northwood P4 was still crap, beating much smaller severely memory limited K7 did not make it non-craHeikki Kultala2014/11/14 11:40 AM
                                                              Northwood P4 was still crap, beating much smaller severely memory limited K7 did not make it non-craGabriele Svelto2014/11/14 01:35 PM
                                                    Fireball ALUs were not half widthPaul A. Clayton2014/11/12 04:08 AM
                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 04:48 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthDan Fay2014/11/12 11:38 AM
                                                          Fireball ALUs were not half widthPatrick Chase2014/11/14 09:36 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthRicardo B2014/11/12 11:51 AM
                                                          Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 07:37 PM
                                                            Fireball ALUs were not half widthRicardo B2014/11/13 05:19 AM
                                                              Fireball ALUs were not half widthMichael S2014/11/13 05:49 AM
                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthCharles2014/11/13 03:00 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/13 06:44 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Michael S2014/11/13 07:13 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/13 11:53 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 09:47 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/14 12:42 PM
                                                            Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 01:30 PM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Mark Roulo2014/11/13 09:45 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brendan2014/11/13 10:40 PM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?anon2014/11/14 01:43 AM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 10:07 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?none2014/11/15 05:35 AM
                                                            Speed demons and the power and memory wallsPaul A. Clayton2014/11/15 08:14 AM
                                                            Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 11:26 AM
                                                              Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/15 11:53 AM
                                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 05:03 PM
                                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?coppice2014/11/17 12:47 AM
                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/16 03:31 PM
                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/16 04:17 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDavid Kanter2014/11/16 08:39 PM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/16 10:24 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 09:07 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 11:40 AM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 01:00 PM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 02:02 PM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 02:25 PM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 04:00 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsenone2014/11/17 11:59 PM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/18 10:18 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAlberto2014/11/19 01:55 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsegallier22014/11/18 12:55 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/19 09:22 AM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/19 09:31 AM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/20 08:33 AM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 09:14 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:30 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 11:10 AM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 11:23 AM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 09:59 PM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 09:45 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/23 10:24 AM
                                                                                              What I hope is only a slight tangentTerry A Gray2014/11/23 02:42 PM
                                                                                              VAX could of made it...Jouni Osmala2014/11/24 06:46 AM
                                                                                                VAX could HAVE made it...gallier22014/11/24 07:26 AM
                                                                                                John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Roulo2014/11/24 03:17 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Rouo2014/11/24 03:21 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Linus Torvalds2014/11/24 05:17 PM
                                                                                                    Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Mark Roulo2014/11/24 05:42 PM
                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/25 01:08 AM
                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Yuhong Bao2014/11/25 09:12 PM
                                                                                                        Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/26 08:02 AM
                                                                                                    Another bump in complexity...David Kanter2014/11/25 10:02 AM
                                                                                                      Another bump in complexity...Peter Lund2014/11/27 11:51 AM
                                                                                                    John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/25 03:34 PM
                                                                                                      John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 11:48 AM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 11:56 AM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/27 03:04 PM
                                                                                                          John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/12/01 04:06 AM
                                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseRonald Maas2014/11/24 06:13 PM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/24 10:48 PM
                                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 12:10 PM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/28 12:52 AM
                                                                                                    68k line decoding and opcodesBrett2014/11/28 09:42 AM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/28 03:42 PM
                                                                                                      Yet another form of "worse is better" ? (NT)Michael S2014/11/29 11:12 AM
                                                                                                        Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/11/30 06:23 PM
                                                                                                          Yet another form of "worse is better" ?dmcq2014/12/01 01:08 AM
                                                                                                            Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Jouni Osmala2014/12/01 10:19 PM
                                                                                                              Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/12/02 12:54 PM
                                                                                                                Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Stunk2014/12/03 12:45 PM
                                                                                                Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/25 03:40 AM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationPeter Lund2014/11/27 12:13 PM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationRonald Maas2014/11/29 08:58 AM
                                                                                                    Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/30 02:08 AM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 12:03 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/20 10:13 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:34 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 09:39 PM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/21 02:30 AM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/21 09:33 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/21 02:49 AM
                                                                                          GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopPaul A. Clayton2014/11/21 04:29 AM
                                                                                            GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopLinus Torvalds2014/11/21 09:14 AM
                                                                                Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Mark Roulo2014/11/19 10:17 AM
                                                                                  Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Kira2014/11/20 06:35 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDuane2014/11/19 10:57 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/17 03:14 PM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 09:52 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/17 07:11 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 06:20 AM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/17 04:38 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 07:10 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseNo one2014/11/18 06:25 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/18 09:32 AM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/18 10:39 AM
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                                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 04:45 PM
                                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/15 09:55 PM
                                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/16 06:55 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 09:56 AM
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                                            How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/09 06:22 PM
                                              How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/09 11:47 PM
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                                                  How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/11 08:45 PM
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                                                        How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/13 01:07 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?mpx2014/11/13 03:25 AM
                                                            immediate? (NT)Michael S2014/11/13 04:00 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/13 10:40 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Ricardo B2014/11/14 06:39 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/13 09:19 PM
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                                                          1024 x 600 (NT)Michael S2014/12/08 02:04 PM
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                                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/12/08 10:57 PM
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                                                                How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/09 10:31 PM
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                                                                        How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/10 06:14 AM
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                                                                    How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/11 02:16 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/10 01:10 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 06:07 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Konrad Schwarz2014/12/10 08:23 AM
                                      The x86 core is Zenjuanrga2014/11/09 05:44 AM
                                        The x86 core is Zendmcq2014/11/16 04:09 AM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?Ken H2014/11/02 08:54 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/02 11:29 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Heikki Kultala2014/11/04 04:01 AM
                                  Bulldozer design 'stupidity'Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 08:16 AM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'juanrga2014/11/04 11:14 AM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'h2014/11/04 12:14 PM
                                      Bulldozer module as drop-in macro?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 12:26 PM
                                      Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Heikki Kultala2014/11/16 10:12 PM
                                        Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Y2014/11/18 09:06 AM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/11/04 11:18 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Exophase2014/11/09 07:01 PM
                      Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 08:20 AM
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    Soft MachinesMaynard Handley2014/10/23 01:29 PM
    Soft Machinesex-apple2014/10/23 01:32 PM
      Soft MachinesSteve2014/10/24 08:37 AM
        How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?ex-apple2014/10/24 11:08 AM
          How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?mpx2014/10/25 03:37 AM
            How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?none2014/10/25 01:15 PM
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        SemiAccurate on Soft MachinesBrendan2014/10/23 11:49 PM
        SemiAccurate on Soft Machinesdmcq2014/10/24 02:55 AM
        Are they on 28 nm?Kevin G2014/10/26 03:23 PM
          Are they on 28 nm?ex-apple2014/10/26 03:47 PM
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  Soft Machines investorsMichael S2014/10/25 10:06 AM
    Why? (NT)Megol2014/10/25 11:46 AM
    Soft Machines investor backstoryex-apple2014/10/28 08:30 PM
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