There he goes again on his favorite hobby horse

By: Peter Lund (peterfirefly.delete@this.gmail.com), November 27, 2014 1:03 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Ronald Maas (rmaas.delete@this.wiwo.nl) on November 24, 2014 7:13 pm wrote:
> Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on November 23, 2014 11:24 am wrote:
> > Apart of disadvantages, both 68K and VAX shared one advantage over x86 - 2-byte granularity of
> > instructions. P6-style brute-force approach to parsing and early decoding would take relatively
> > less hardware resources. I don't believe that it could have helped VAX, but it could make 3-way
> > 68K feasible even in transistor budget that does not allow decent decoded instruction cache.
> >
> >
>
> A huge benefit of the x86 instruction encoding scheme is that it allows determination of the instruction length
> by inspecting only the first 1, 2 or 3 bytes of the instruction (not counting any prefixes). The only exception
> is when some length-changing prefixes are used such as address size prefix and operand size prefix. When the
> processor encounters these prefixes in the instruction streams, it is not able to decode these instructions
> in a single cycle anymore. Search for LCP in the Intel Optimization Reference Manual http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/manuals/64-ia-32-architectures-optimization-manual.pdf
>
> With 68K and VAX often the whole instruction must be parsed in order to determine its length.

Yes.

> Which would
> significantly increase the technical complexity required for building a superscalar instruction decoder.

No.

1) you don't have to handle all the long instructions in order to make the data path go fast. You can get very far if you can just detect the most important 1-4 byte instructions and translate them quickly to decent µops. If the decoders (which are allowed to spend more than one cycle on the problem due to the branch predictor) can't figure it out easily, you can use a more sequential decoding approach. Known and published dynamic instruction statistics back this up.

2) you can cache the "instruction start/end" information, just like various Intel and AMD x86's have. This helps you with superscalarity in the decoders (which you don't even need at first).

-Peter
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TopicPosted ByDate
Soft MachinesSymmetry2014/10/23 12:54 PM
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                      Soft Machines Inventionsjuanrga2014/10/29 04:49 AM
                        Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 07:58 AM
                          Soft Machines InventionsMaynard Handley2014/10/29 10:01 AM
                            Vaguely reminscent of Sun's Rock (NT)Paul A. Clayton2014/10/29 08:56 PM
                          Soft Machines Inventionsjuanrga2014/10/30 08:00 AM
                            Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/30 12:16 PM
                              Soft Machines Inventionsjuanrga2014/10/30 12:52 PM
                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?ex-apple2014/10/29 08:15 AM
                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/10/30 08:51 AM
                            But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/10/31 05:34 PM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/10/31 10:26 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/01 11:07 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/01 12:25 PM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/01 03:26 PM
                                    But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/08 04:10 PM
                                      But can it beat an optimized OoO?David Kanter2014/11/09 12:08 AM
                                        But can it beat an optimized OoO?Brett2014/11/09 01:51 AM
                                          But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/09 02:05 AM
                                          How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/09 09:19 AM
                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/09 01:46 PM
                                              How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/09 02:43 PM
                                                How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/09 04:23 PM
                                                  How many CPU cores?David Kanter2014/11/10 12:43 AM
                                                    How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/10 06:19 PM
                                                      How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/11 02:19 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/11/11 02:50 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/11 08:20 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/11 09:23 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/11 04:21 PM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/12 02:53 AM
                                                                How many CPU cores?none2014/11/12 03:36 AM
                                                                  How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/12 04:18 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?none2014/11/12 04:26 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?David Kanter nli2014/11/12 03:10 PM
                                                                      How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/13 10:10 PM
                                                How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/09 05:17 PM
                                                How many CPU cores?juanrga2014/11/10 08:00 AM
                                                  How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/11/10 07:09 PM
                                                How many CPU cores?none2014/11/10 08:36 AM
                                              How many CPU cores?Charles2014/11/11 04:56 AM
                                                How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/11/11 07:22 AM
                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/11 08:21 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Kevin G2014/11/11 09:38 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/11 10:50 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/14 04:20 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Maynard Handley2014/11/14 04:36 PM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?NoSpammer2014/11/16 02:06 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/11 06:34 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?rwessel2014/11/11 09:48 PM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/12 02:29 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Michael S2014/11/12 03:02 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Doug S2014/11/12 08:41 PM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/13 05:57 PM
                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapsomeone2014/11/14 08:20 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/14 10:41 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 12:09 PM
                                                              Northwood P4 was definitely not crapslacker2014/11/14 04:19 PM
                                                                Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 06:28 PM
                                                                  Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/14 07:35 PM
                                                                    Northwood P4 was definitely not crapBrett2014/11/14 09:11 PM
                                                                      Northwood P4 was definitely not crapLinus Torvalds2014/11/15 12:35 PM
                                                                        Northwood P4 was definitely not crapBrett2014/11/15 02:53 PM
                                                                          Northwood P4 was definitely not crapDoug S2014/11/16 12:00 AM
                                                            Northwood P4 was still crap, beating much smaller severely memory limited K7 did not make it non-craHeikki Kultala2014/11/14 12:40 PM
                                                              Northwood P4 was still crap, beating much smaller severely memory limited K7 did not make it non-craGabriele Svelto2014/11/14 02:35 PM
                                                    Fireball ALUs were not half widthPaul A. Clayton2014/11/12 05:08 AM
                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 05:48 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthDan Fay2014/11/12 12:38 PM
                                                          Fireball ALUs were not half widthPatrick Chase2014/11/14 10:36 AM
                                                        Fireball ALUs were not half widthRicardo B2014/11/12 12:51 PM
                                                          Fireball ALUs were not half widthanon2014/11/12 08:37 PM
                                                            Fireball ALUs were not half widthRicardo B2014/11/13 06:19 AM
                                                              Fireball ALUs were not half widthMichael S2014/11/13 06:49 AM
                                                      Fireball ALUs were not half widthCharles2014/11/13 04:00 AM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/13 07:44 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Michael S2014/11/13 08:13 AM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Charles2014/11/14 12:53 AM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 10:47 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/14 01:42 PM
                                                            Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 02:30 PM
                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Mark Roulo2014/11/13 10:45 AM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brendan2014/11/13 11:40 PM
                                                      Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?anon2014/11/14 02:43 AM
                                                        Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 11:07 AM
                                                          Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?none2014/11/15 06:35 AM
                                                            Speed demons and the power and memory wallsPaul A. Clayton2014/11/15 09:14 AM
                                                            Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 12:26 PM
                                                              Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Linus Torvalds2014/11/15 12:53 PM
                                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 06:03 PM
                                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?coppice2014/11/17 01:47 AM
                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/16 04:31 PM
                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/16 05:17 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDavid Kanter2014/11/16 09:39 PM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/16 11:24 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:07 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 12:40 PM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 02:00 PM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 03:02 PM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 03:25 PM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/17 05:00 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsenone2014/11/18 12:59 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/18 11:18 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAlberto2014/11/19 02:55 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsegallier22014/11/18 01:55 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/19 10:22 AM
                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/19 10:31 AM
                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/20 09:33 AM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 10:14 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 11:30 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 12:10 PM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/20 12:23 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:59 PM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:45 PM
                                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/23 11:24 AM
                                                                                              What I hope is only a slight tangentTerry A Gray2014/11/23 03:42 PM
                                                                                              VAX could of made it...Jouni Osmala2014/11/24 07:46 AM
                                                                                                VAX could HAVE made it...gallier22014/11/24 08:26 AM
                                                                                                John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Roulo2014/11/24 04:17 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Mark Rouo2014/11/24 04:21 PM
                                                                                                  John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Linus Torvalds2014/11/24 06:17 PM
                                                                                                    Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Mark Roulo2014/11/24 06:42 PM
                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/25 02:08 AM
                                                                                                      Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Yuhong Bao2014/11/25 10:12 PM
                                                                                                        Can you survive waiting for enough resources to build a fast VAX?Michael S2014/11/26 09:02 AM
                                                                                                    Another bump in complexity...David Kanter2014/11/25 11:02 AM
                                                                                                      Another bump in complexity...Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:51 PM
                                                                                                    John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/25 04:34 PM
                                                                                                      John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:48 PM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/11/27 12:56 PM
                                                                                                        John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Ricardo B2014/11/27 04:04 PM
                                                                                                          John Mashey has a comp.arch post that is relevant (maybe)Peter Lund2014/12/01 05:06 AM
                                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseRonald Maas2014/11/24 07:13 PM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/24 11:48 PM
                                                                                                  There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 01:10 PM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horserwessel2014/11/28 01:52 AM
                                                                                                    68k line decoding and opcodesBrett2014/11/28 10:42 AM
                                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/28 04:42 PM
                                                                                                      Yet another form of "worse is better" ? (NT)Michael S2014/11/29 12:12 PM
                                                                                                        Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/11/30 07:23 PM
                                                                                                          Yet another form of "worse is better" ?dmcq2014/12/01 02:08 AM
                                                                                                            Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Jouni Osmala2014/12/01 11:19 PM
                                                                                                              Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Patrick Chase2014/12/02 01:54 PM
                                                                                                                Yet another form of "worse is better" ?Stunk2014/12/03 01:45 PM
                                                                                                Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/25 04:40 AM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationPeter Lund2014/11/27 01:13 PM
                                                                                                  Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationRonald Maas2014/11/29 09:58 AM
                                                                                                    Make RISCY case fast CISCY case slow implementationJouni Osmala2014/11/30 03:08 AM
                                                                                                There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePeter Lund2014/11/27 01:03 PM
                                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/20 11:13 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 11:34 AM
                                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/20 10:39 PM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseAaron Spink2014/11/21 03:30 AM
                                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsePatrick Chase2014/11/21 10:33 AM
                                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMichael S2014/11/21 03:49 AM
                                                                                          GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopPaul A. Clayton2014/11/21 05:29 AM
                                                                                            GPRs did rotate, renaming not in execute critical loopLinus Torvalds2014/11/21 10:14 AM
                                                                                Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Mark Roulo2014/11/19 11:17 AM
                                                                                  Information on Intel pre-Itanium architecture effort?Kira2014/11/20 07:35 AM
                                                                              There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDuane2014/11/19 11:57 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseMaynard Handley2014/11/17 04:14 PM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseDoug S2014/11/17 10:52 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsecoppice2014/11/17 08:11 PM
                                                                    There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 07:20 AM
                                                                      There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/17 05:38 PM
                                                                        There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/17 08:10 PM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseNo one2014/11/18 07:25 AM
                                                                          There he goes again on his favorite hobby horseLinus Torvalds2014/11/18 10:32 AM
                                                                            There he goes again on his favorite hobby horsesomeone2014/11/18 11:39 AM
                                                              Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/15 03:00 PM
                                                                Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/15 05:45 PM
                                                                  Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Brett2014/11/15 10:55 PM
                                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/16 07:55 PM
                                                    Why did Netburst seem like "crap"?Patrick Chase2014/11/14 10:56 AM
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                                            How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/09 07:22 PM
                                              How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/10 12:47 AM
                                                How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/11 07:18 PM
                                                  How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/11 09:45 PM
                                                    How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/12 01:55 AM
                                                      How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/12 08:32 PM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/11/13 02:07 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?mpx2014/11/13 04:25 AM
                                                            immediate? (NT)Michael S2014/11/13 05:00 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Doug S2014/11/13 11:40 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Ricardo B2014/11/14 07:39 AM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Brett2014/11/13 10:19 PM
                                                        How many CPU cores?Brett2014/12/08 01:14 PM
                                                          1024 x 600 (NT)Michael S2014/12/08 03:04 PM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/08 07:39 PM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/12/08 11:57 PM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/09 05:26 AM
                                                                How many CPU cores?Ronald Maas2014/12/09 01:10 PM
                                                            How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/09 01:02 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/09 05:25 AM
                                                                How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/09 11:31 PM
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                                                                    How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/10 02:55 AM
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                                                              How many CPU cores?Maynard Handley2014/12/09 10:53 AM
                                                                How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/09 11:38 AM
                                                                  How many CPU cores?Maynard Handley2014/12/09 11:52 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/09 12:14 PM
                                                                      How many CPU cores?Maynard Handley2014/12/09 12:34 PM
                                                                  How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/09 02:08 PM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/10 03:02 AM
                                                                How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/09 11:28 PM
                                                                  How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 01:13 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/10 04:15 AM
                                                                      How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 07:06 AM
                                                                        How many CPU cores?anon2014/12/10 07:14 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Brett2014/12/09 01:28 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/09 05:25 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Ann O. Nym2014/12/09 12:15 PM
                                                                How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/09 02:04 PM
                                                                  How many CPU cores?Ann O. Nym2014/12/10 05:37 AM
                                                                    How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/11 03:16 AM
                                                            How many CPU cores?Michael S2014/12/10 02:10 AM
                                                              How many CPU cores?Gabriele Svelto2014/12/10 07:07 AM
                                                          How many CPU cores?Konrad Schwarz2014/12/10 09:23 AM
                                      The x86 core is Zenjuanrga2014/11/09 06:44 AM
                                        The x86 core is Zendmcq2014/11/16 05:09 AM
                              But can it beat an optimized OoO?Ken H2014/11/02 09:54 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Michael S2014/11/03 12:29 AM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Heikki Kultala2014/11/04 05:01 AM
                                  Bulldozer design 'stupidity'Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 09:16 AM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'juanrga2014/11/04 12:14 PM
                                    Bulldozer design 'stupidity'h2014/11/04 01:14 PM
                                      Bulldozer module as drop-in macro?Paul A. Clayton2014/11/04 01:26 PM
                                      Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Heikki Kultala2014/11/16 11:12 PM
                                        Bulldozer L2 latency(re: Bulldozer design 'stupidity')Y2014/11/18 10:06 AM
                                  But can it beat an optimized OoO?juanrga2014/11/04 12:18 PM
                                But can it beat an optimized OoO?Exophase2014/11/09 08:01 PM
                      Soft Machines Inventionsook2014/10/29 09:20 AM
  Soft MachinesGabriele Svelto2014/10/23 02:09 PM
    Soft MachinesMaynard Handley2014/10/23 02:29 PM
    Soft Machinesex-apple2014/10/23 02:32 PM
      Soft MachinesSteve2014/10/24 09:37 AM
        How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?ex-apple2014/10/24 12:08 PM
          How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?mpx2014/10/25 04:37 AM
            How well does Soft Machines do on ARM/x86?none2014/10/25 02:15 PM
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        Soft Machinesjuanrga2014/10/25 02:34 AM
          Soft MachinesPatrick Chase2014/10/28 10:59 AM
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        SemiAccurate on Soft MachinesBrendan2014/10/24 12:49 AM
        SemiAccurate on Soft Machinesdmcq2014/10/24 03:55 AM
        Are they on 28 nm?Kevin G2014/10/26 04:23 PM
          Are they on 28 nm?ex-apple2014/10/26 04:47 PM
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  Soft Machines investorsMichael S2014/10/25 11:06 AM
    Why? (NT)Megol2014/10/25 12:46 PM
    Soft Machines investor backstoryex-apple2014/10/28 09:30 PM
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