Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...

By: coppice (coppice.delete@this.dis.org), January 12, 2015 9:45 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
someone (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com) on January 9, 2015 10:31 am wrote:
> coppice (coppice.delete@this.dis.org) on January 8, 2015 11:38 pm wrote:
> > Mark Roulo (nothanks.delete@this.xxx.com) on January 8, 2015 6:37 pm wrote:
> > > juanrga (nospam.delete@this.juanrga.com) on January 7, 2015 6:03 am wrote:
> > > > I recall Aaron asking me why I believed that mixing VLIW with
> > > > RA was a good idea. Funny, because we know now that
> > > > Denver is an in-order VLIW+RA core that outperforms wide OoO cores such as Cyclone or Haswell.
> > >
> > > Have you not noticed that nVidia did not select the fastest 15W Haswell CPU they could?
> > >
> > > The 2955U Celeron is a 15W TDP part with no hyperthreading, a clockspeed
> > > of 1.4 GHz and 2 MB of L3 cache. Turbo-boost is disabled.
> > >
> > > The 4650U is *also* a 15W TDP Haswell part, but it has a base frequency
> > > of 1.7 GHz, 4 MB of L3 cache and will turbo to 3.3 GHz.
> > >
> > > Eyeballing the nVidia chart, the Denver (@ 2.5GHz?) beat
> > > the 2955U by about 10% on SpecInt2000. My guess is
> > > that a 4650U would beat the Denver chip by close to 2:1. When you lose by 2:1, you aren't "outperforming".
> >
> > The 4650U is a very expensive chip, while dual core denvers are going into tablets.
>
> Do you understand the difference between cost and price? How about
> market segmentation and price discrimination? Depending on customer
> demand patterns nearly any specific sample of a high volume MPU
> might be sold by Intel for $X or be significantly de-featured at final test
> and sell for $X/2 or even $X/3. (It's hard for people with no grounding
> in economics to understand why this is to everyone's benefit but that's
> a discussion for another day)
>
> The price of an Intel processor, especially one more expensive than
> its overall segment ASP, has much less to do with cost than it does
> with perceived value on the part of the customer and what they are
> willing to pay.
>
> If Nvidia *could* get customers to pay more for any or all of their chips
> then it would certainly demand a higher price. If Intel started losing
> sockets to Denver it could certainly afford to lower its prices and/or
> change SKU configurations to improve value/$.
>
> Your argument opposing the performance comparisons made by the
> previous poster on the basis of pricing is basically a non-sequitur.

Do you think Intel could make a profit selling the 4650U for $20? If not, then its your argument which makes no sense. You can only sell striped down chips at cost if you can sell the full featured ones at a high price. A small chip can always be sold cheap. A big chip can only be sold cheap as part of a mix. That's the bit that many people didn't absorb in their economics class.

The die of the 4650U is a lot bigger than the Denver one allowing for process differences. That means the comparison is unrealistic. The 2955U defeatures big chunks, like bringing the cache down to the size of the Denver one. Unfortunately they also defeature some other useful stuff, so the comparison of the 2955U with the Denver chip is not entirely fair, but at least it gets closer to comparing what the two approaches can do with a similar amount of silicon.

The discussion was about what the cores can do, but you can only compare entire chips, and there are a lot of differences beyond the core. A lot of ARM chips have been handicapped by poor memory controllers, but I assume nVidia know what they are doing there. That makes me suspect this ARM(ish) vs Intel comparison is a lot more meaningful than most of the ones we see.
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                              Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/05 10:32 AM
                                Avoiding ping pongGabriele Svelto2014/12/05 12:45 PM
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                                          Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/06 07:07 AM
                                            Avoiding ping pongnksingh2014/12/07 04:06 PM
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                                                Avoiding ping pongGiGNiC2014/12/08 11:53 AM
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                        Avoiding ping pongLinus Torvalds2014/12/05 12:58 PM
                          Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/06 02:42 AM
                            Avoiding ping pongnksingh2014/12/06 03:51 AM
                              Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/06 04:08 AM
                            Avoiding ping pongLinus Torvalds2014/12/06 01:25 PM
                              Avoiding ping pongnksingh2014/12/07 03:26 PM
                                Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/08 04:35 AM
                                  Avoiding ping pongBrett2014/12/08 10:00 AM
                                    Avoiding ping pongEric Bron2014/12/08 10:48 AM
                                    Avoiding ping pongrwessel2014/12/08 12:52 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongBrett2014/12/08 01:58 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongDoug S2014/12/08 02:04 PM
                              Avoiding ping pongJouni Osmala2014/12/08 02:45 AM
                                Avoiding ping ponganon2014/12/08 05:44 AM
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                                            Avoiding ping pongMaynard Handley2014/12/09 11:41 AM
                                              Avoiding ping pongPatrick Chase2014/12/09 01:06 PM
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                                                Avoiding ping pongPatrick Chase2014/12/09 02:08 PM
                                            Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Rob Thorpe2015/01/02 08:20 AM
                                              Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/02 11:21 AM
                                                Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?EduardoS2015/01/02 11:37 AM
                                                  Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/03 12:00 PM
                                                Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron nli2015/01/02 02:28 PM
                                                  Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/03 12:02 PM
                                                    Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Michael S2015/01/03 12:36 PM
                                                      Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/03 01:11 PM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Michael S2015/01/03 01:30 PM
                                                          Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/03 02:57 PM
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                                                                  KNL cacheEric Bron2015/01/04 04:57 AM
                                                                    KNL cacheMichael S2015/01/04 05:21 AM
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                                                          Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/07 05:47 AM
                                                            Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Michael S2015/01/07 08:27 AM
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                                                                        Manycores vs multicoresAaron Spink2015/01/11 05:55 PM
                                                                          Manycores vs multicoresMichael S2015/01/12 04:41 AM
                                                                            Manycores vs multicoresEric Bron2015/01/12 06:29 AM
                                                                              Manycores vs multicoresEric Bron2015/01/12 06:30 AM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/03 02:54 PM
                                                          Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/07 05:48 AM
                                                            Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/07 07:41 AM
                                                              Manycores vs multicoresjuanrga2015/01/10 04:14 PM
                                                    Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/03 02:42 PM
                                                      Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?juanrga2015/01/07 06:03 AM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/07 07:45 AM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Linus Torvalds2015/01/08 03:09 PM
                                                          Pink unicorns for salejuanrga2015/01/10 05:09 PM
                                                        Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...Mark Roulo2015/01/08 06:37 PM
                                                          Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...coppice2015/01/08 11:38 PM
                                                            Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...Mark Roulo2015/01/09 09:13 AM
                                                              Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...Anon2015/01/10 02:00 AM
                                                              Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...David Hess2015/01/11 01:03 PM
                                                            Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...someone2015/01/09 10:31 AM
                                                              Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...coppice2015/01/12 09:45 PM
                                                                Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...coppice2015/01/12 09:47 PM
                                                                  Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...Michael S2015/01/13 07:53 AM
                                                                    Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...coppice2015/01/13 09:44 AM
                                                                      Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...Michael S2015/01/13 10:01 AM
                                                                        Intentionally picking a competitors slow part is cheating ...coppice2015/01/13 08:35 PM
                                                                      Core sizesjuanrga2015/01/13 12:28 PM
                                                          NVIDIA'S FIRST CPU IS A WINNER (Linley Gwennap)juanrga2015/01/10 04:34 PM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Patrick Chase2015/01/08 07:02 PM
                                                        Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?coppice2015/01/08 10:18 PM
                                                          Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Patrick Chase2015/01/09 11:54 AM
                                                            Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Mark Roulo2015/01/09 12:59 PM
                                                              Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Patrick Chase2015/01/09 03:20 PM
                                                                Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Eric Bron2015/01/09 03:30 PM
                                                            Alternatives to OOOE (again)juanrga2015/01/10 04:50 PM
                                                              Alternatives to OOOE (again)David Kanter2015/01/11 12:10 AM
                                                                Alternatives to OOOE (again)juanrga2015/01/11 08:30 AM
                                                            Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Gabriele Svelto2015/01/11 12:53 AM
                                              Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Fake Linus Torvalds2015/01/03 12:14 PM
                                                Why read RWT or Reddit when you can get journalists to do it for you?Rob Thorpe2015/01/03 08:25 PM
                                          Avoiding ping pongMaynard Handley2014/12/09 11:33 AM
                                            Avoiding ping pongPatrick Chase2014/12/09 01:54 PM
                                              Avoiding ping pongMaynard Handley2014/12/09 06:56 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongSalvatore De Dominicis2014/12/09 08:51 AM
                                        Avoiding ping pongPatrick Chase2014/12/09 02:00 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongook2014/12/11 03:31 AM
                                      Avoiding ping pongArt Scott2014/12/19 10:19 PM
                                        Avoiding ping pongEric Bron nli2014/12/20 04:05 AM
                                      What about specialization?Troll?2015/01/02 07:55 AM
                                        What about specialization?Ungo2015/01/04 03:27 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongfewwef2015/01/05 08:16 PM
                                      Avoiding ping pongV.Krishn2015/01/08 06:11 AM
                                    Avoiding ping pongGabriele Svelto2014/12/08 07:32 PM
                                    Avoiding ping ponganon2014/12/08 11:37 PM
                            Avoiding ping pongKonrad Schwarz2014/12/10 06:23 AM
                              Avoiding ping pongLinus Torvalds2014/12/10 11:56 AM
                          Object reference lockingDavid W2014/12/08 11:36 PM
                            Object reference lockingPatrick Chase2014/12/09 04:52 PM
                              Object reference lockingDavid W2014/12/11 05:18 AM
                    ISA != interface for "most programmers"Paul A. Clayton2014/12/04 03:34 PM
                      ISA != interface for "most programmers"rwessel2014/12/04 07:50 PM
                  Interesting! (exporting hot lines/cache-aware ISA); "Please sir, I want some more" (NT)Paul A. Clayton2014/12/04 02:26 PM
                  Avoiding ping pongMichael S2014/12/06 03:48 PM
          ARMv8 getting atomic operationsLinus Torvalds2014/12/04 12:05 PM
            LL/SC idiom recognition is not admitting RMW superiorityPaul A. Clayton2014/12/04 02:34 PM
            ARMv8 getting atomic operationsanon2014/12/04 10:17 PM
    ARMv8 getting atomic operationsPatrick Chase2014/12/03 12:09 PM
  limited ordernksingh2014/12/04 10:17 PM
    I didn't understand this either. (NT)Konrad Schwarz2014/12/04 10:32 PM
    limited orderdmcq2014/12/05 02:13 AM
    limited orderbakaneko2014/12/05 09:11 AM
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