Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real world

By: dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk), July 13, 2015 6:27 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on July 12, 2015 3:42 am wrote:
> Simon Farnsworth (simon.delete@this.farnz.org.uk) on July 10, 2015 1:07 pm wrote:
> > dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on July 9, 2015 4:24 pm wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, the hardware doesn't actually do "memory barrier" operations directly; it passes
> > messages around in the cache coherency protocol (MOESI or similar).
>
> This is not true. Depending on the interconnect and cache coherency rules,
> a significant amount / most reordering is done by inside the CPU core.
>
> Significantly, loads pass other memory operations due to out of order execution or non blocking loads
> (load/load reordering can be hidden from ISA by speculation in complex cores, but apparently not load/store).
> And stores like to pass other stores before reaching the cache coherency layer (in case your newer
> store does not have cacheline exclusive), and to a lesser extent with blocked loads.
>
> So all of that happens inside the core. Memory ordering instructions
> have to prevent these reorderings within the core.
>
> > If you really want to make the
> > hardware's life simple (so that it can really scream), you'd surely push back and make software decide
> > exactly which cache coherency messages it wants to send and when it forces write back from cache
> > to RAM - indeed, in some senses, a Cell SPU forced the developers to do exactly that.
> >
> > The fact that we prefer to hide that simple approach underneath memory barriers and hardware
> > cache controls suggests that we'd prefer to constrain the hardware to make the programming
> > model easier to grasp - look at how hard developers found it to exploit the Cell SPUs.

I've nothing against coherence, just the business of saying that every single memory operation has acquire or release semantics rather than using special operations for when the user requires coherence. We most definitely do need some sort of coherence or otherwise for instance transaction processing can't be supported. Transaction processing doesn't require that every single operation within a transaction have its own individual secure or commit though.
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                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/09 03:37 AM
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                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/09 09:09 AM
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                                                  Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldWilco2015/07/13 03:36 PM
                                                    Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldEduardoS2015/07/13 03:56 PM
                                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/13 05:43 PM
                                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldEduardoS2015/07/13 07:11 PM
                                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/13 08:07 PM
                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldMaynard Handley2015/07/12 11:32 AM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldEduardoS2015/07/12 12:35 PM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldLinus Torvalds2015/07/12 12:38 PM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldEduardoS2015/07/12 05:47 PM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldNoSpammer2015/07/13 11:34 AM
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                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldNoSpammer2015/07/14 01:02 PM
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                                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/15 01:26 AM
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                                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldNoSpammer2015/07/15 11:50 AM
                                                              Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldLinus Torvalds2015/07/15 01:27 PM
                                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldNoSpammer2015/07/15 02:14 PM
                                                                  Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldLinus Torvalds2015/07/15 04:42 PM
                                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldNoSpammer2015/07/15 01:44 AM
                                                    Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldLinus Torvalds2015/07/15 01:17 PM
                                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldWilco2015/07/15 01:43 PM
                                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/15 04:45 PM
                                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldLinus Torvalds2015/07/15 05:35 PM
                                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/16 01:46 AM
                                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/16 01:49 AM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/21 06:15 AM
                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/12 06:42 PM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/12 08:48 PM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldDavid Kanter2015/07/12 09:34 PM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldMichael S2015/07/13 12:51 AM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldDavid Kanter2015/07/13 07:31 AM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/13 05:05 AM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldGabriele Svelto2015/07/17 04:40 AM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/13 07:09 AM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/13 06:46 AM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/14 03:12 AM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/15 02:51 AM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/15 03:38 AM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/15 05:21 AM
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                                        Not sure about that conclusionDavid Kanter2015/07/16 06:34 AM
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                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/20 03:44 AM
                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/20 06:29 AM
                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/20 11:08 PM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/21 12:27 AM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldMichael S2015/07/21 02:11 AM
                                              Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/21 04:24 AM
                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/21 05:22 AM
                                              Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/21 06:36 AM
                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/21 07:25 AM
                                              Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/21 07:17 AM
                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/21 08:50 AM
                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldGabriele Svelto2015/07/21 11:46 AM
                                                Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/21 11:35 PM
                                                  Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/22 12:37 AM
                                                  Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldanon2015/07/23 02:17 AM
                                                    Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/23 03:59 AM
                                                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldMichael S2015/07/23 06:31 AM
                                                        Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/23 02:38 PM
                                                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/23 10:44 PM
                                                            Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/24 12:08 AM
                                    Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worlddmcq2015/07/13 06:27 AM
                          Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldKonrad Schwarz2015/07/16 04:11 AM
                      Example of memory ordering causing excitement in the real worldAnonymousse2015/07/16 04:07 AM
          Benefit of dynamic hammock predicationsomeotherdude2015/07/06 04:12 PM
            Benefit of dynamic hammock predicationMichael S2015/07/07 12:19 AM
          Benefit of dynamic hammock predicationPatrick Chase2015/07/06 09:20 PM
            SIMD predication is also helpful, of course (NT)Paul A. Clayton2015/07/07 06:45 AM
        Power8 branch conversionGabriele Svelto2015/07/07 01:50 AM
          isel works for storesPaul A. Clayton2015/07/07 06:43 AM
            isel works for storesPatrick Chase2015/07/07 10:08 AM
            isel DOES NOT work for storessomeotherdude2015/07/07 03:01 PM
              isel DOES NOT work for storesWilco2015/07/07 03:40 PM
              Yes it doesPatrick Chase2015/07/07 10:14 PM
                Yes it doesvvid2015/07/08 08:51 AM
            You don't need isel eitherGabriele Svelto2015/07/08 01:01 AM
              You don't need isel eitherPaul A. Clayton2015/07/08 03:46 AM
                You don't need isel eitherGabriele Svelto2015/07/08 04:22 AM
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