By: juanrga (noemail.delete@this.juanrga.com), October 23, 2016 6:29 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Mr. Camel (a.delete@this.b.c) on October 22, 2016 4:58 am wrote:
> anonymou5 (no.delete@this.spam.com) on October 21, 2016 6:44 pm wrote:
> > > http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2016/10/21/apples-a10-iphone-chip-smokes-the-competition-says-linley-group/
> >
> > How are they coming up with 11.6 mm^2 for Broadwell?
> >
> > If you count pixels in the public die pics, it's more
> > like 5.35 x 1.90 = 10.165 mm^2 for the core+LLC slice,
> > and more like 3.50 x 1.75 = 6.125 mm^2 for the core.
> >
> > For Skylake, it's 4.15 * 2.85 = 11.8275 mm^2 including
> > the LLC and 3.70 x 2.20 = 8.14 mm^2 for the core, and
> > for Kabylake it's 4.10 * 2.80 = 11.48 mm^2 and 3.65 x
> > 2.20 = 8.03 mm^2. (Realistically... no change at all.)
> >
> > Trying to cut out the L2 caches from these... I do not
> > have the patience for tonight, sorry. :)
>
> If the 11.6 mm^2 data point is accurate, why is Intel's Broadwell
> core so much bigger than Apple's A10 Hurricane core?
>
> It would appear that it is much less area efficient than Hurricane. The only reasons I can think of are:
>
> 1. Intel is using bigger transistors (more fins) in order reach the significantly
> higher frequencies of Broadwell compared to Hurricane.
Less dense libraries increase size, but on the other side, Broadwell is made on a more advanced process node:
Intel "14nm" ~ 16nm
TSMC "16nm" ~ 20nm
> 2. x86 to RISC translation transistor overhead (but I am
> skeptical that this amounts to anything significant)
The x86 tax is not only in the decoder translation stage.
> 3. Other microarchitectural complexity needing a larger transistor budget.
3a. 256bit datapaths and SIMD units.
3b. 8-wide vs 6-wide.
3c. The rest of the x86 tax.
> The article claims that the Hurricane core's IPC is equivalent to Skylake's (let
> alone Broadwell) so if this is true, the A10 appears to be a technical marvel.
>
> Any insight from more experienced CPU designers (or anyone else) would be highly appreciated.
>
> anonymou5 (no.delete@this.spam.com) on October 21, 2016 6:44 pm wrote:
> > > http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2016/10/21/apples-a10-iphone-chip-smokes-the-competition-says-linley-group/
> >
> > How are they coming up with 11.6 mm^2 for Broadwell?
> >
> > If you count pixels in the public die pics, it's more
> > like 5.35 x 1.90 = 10.165 mm^2 for the core+LLC slice,
> > and more like 3.50 x 1.75 = 6.125 mm^2 for the core.
> >
> > For Skylake, it's 4.15 * 2.85 = 11.8275 mm^2 including
> > the LLC and 3.70 x 2.20 = 8.14 mm^2 for the core, and
> > for Kabylake it's 4.10 * 2.80 = 11.48 mm^2 and 3.65 x
> > 2.20 = 8.03 mm^2. (Realistically... no change at all.)
> >
> > Trying to cut out the L2 caches from these... I do not
> > have the patience for tonight, sorry. :)
>
> If the 11.6 mm^2 data point is accurate, why is Intel's Broadwell
> core so much bigger than Apple's A10 Hurricane core?
>
> It would appear that it is much less area efficient than Hurricane. The only reasons I can think of are:
>
> 1. Intel is using bigger transistors (more fins) in order reach the significantly
> higher frequencies of Broadwell compared to Hurricane.
Less dense libraries increase size, but on the other side, Broadwell is made on a more advanced process node:
Intel "14nm" ~ 16nm
TSMC "16nm" ~ 20nm
> 2. x86 to RISC translation transistor overhead (but I am
> skeptical that this amounts to anything significant)
The x86 tax is not only in the decoder translation stage.
> 3. Other microarchitectural complexity needing a larger transistor budget.
3a. 256bit datapaths and SIMD units.
3b. 8-wide vs 6-wide.
3c. The rest of the x86 tax.
> The article claims that the Hurricane core's IPC is equivalent to Skylake's (let
> alone Broadwell) so if this is true, the A10 appears to be a technical marvel.
>
> Any insight from more experienced CPU designers (or anyone else) would be highly appreciated.
>
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
Neat die area comparison image | Rob | 2016/10/21 05:39 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | anonymou5 | 2016/10/21 06:44 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | Mr. Camel | 2016/10/22 04:58 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Heikki Kultala | 2016/10/22 05:19 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Mr. Camel | 2016/10/22 07:10 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Mr. Camel | 2016/10/22 07:15 AM |
different caches... | Heikki Kultala | 2016/10/22 08:29 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/10/22 08:52 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/23 06:09 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/10/23 07:25 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/25 09:57 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Simon Farnsworth | 2016/10/25 11:03 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/28 02:02 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/10/28 04:13 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/29 09:47 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Travis | 2016/10/30 06:34 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/31 04:35 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Simon Farnsworth | 2016/10/31 04:42 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/11/01 12:56 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Maynard Handley | 2016/11/01 01:37 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/11/01 04:22 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Maynard Handley | 2016/11/01 07:30 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/11/02 06:15 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Maynard Handley | 2016/11/02 09:23 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/11/02 11:50 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Simon Farnsworth | 2016/11/02 02:48 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Simon Farnsworth | 2016/10/28 06:19 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | juanrga | 2016/10/29 10:15 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Simon Farnsworth | 2016/10/30 12:31 PM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | Ricardo B | 2016/10/29 05:30 PM |
underclocked is different than designed for low clock speed | Heikki Kultala | 2016/10/25 11:47 PM |
underclocked is different than designed for low clock speed | Maynard Handley | 2016/10/26 10:07 AM |
That wasn't the point | juanrga | 2016/10/28 02:15 AM |
Even without the point you have invalid comparison | Heikki Kultala | 2016/10/28 09:03 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/10/29 10:41 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/10/30 05:00 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Doug S | 2016/10/30 12:20 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/10/30 01:12 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/10/30 02:56 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Travis | 2016/10/30 07:13 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/10/31 04:55 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | anon | 2016/11/01 01:00 PM |
SoftMachines | none | 2016/11/02 03:57 AM |
SoftMachines | David Kanter | 2016/11/02 08:53 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/03 12:35 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/03 02:13 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/03 07:35 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/04 01:27 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/04 06:08 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/06 04:52 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/06 04:56 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/07 04:25 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Aaron Spink | 2016/11/04 04:08 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/04 06:10 PM |
Dunning-Krueger effect | Heikki Kultala | 2016/11/04 03:22 AM |
Dunning-Krueger effect | itsmydamnation | 2016/11/04 02:48 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | anon | 2016/11/04 03:38 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/04 05:05 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | anon | 2016/11/04 06:12 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/04 01:12 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | anon | 2016/11/04 02:54 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/04 05:34 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | anon | 2016/11/05 02:14 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/04 05:39 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/06 05:15 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/06 05:06 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/07 03:45 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | David Kanter | 2016/11/07 08:43 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/08 03:57 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/14 12:12 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/14 04:53 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | dmcq | 2016/11/15 03:17 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/15 03:43 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | dmcq | 2016/11/15 04:28 AM |
1 µop per instruction is not necessary | Paul A. Clayton | 2016/11/17 12:09 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/20 06:56 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/21 05:54 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | juanrga | 2016/11/22 08:49 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/11/22 03:25 PM |
8 wide vs 6 wide | Wilco | 2016/10/31 03:03 AM |
Skylake can retire 8 uops | David Kanter | 2016/10/31 12:41 AM |
Skylake can retire 8 uops | juanrga | 2016/10/31 04:15 AM |
Skylake can retire 8 uops | Alberto | 2016/11/04 07:22 AM |
8 wide vs 6 wide bogus numbers | Heikki Kultala | 2016/10/30 06:25 AM |
Broadwell includes LLC, just for comparision | anon | 2016/10/26 03:10 AM |
Pushing the hidden agenda | juanrga | 2016/10/28 03:11 AM |
Pushing the hidden agenda | anon | 2016/10/28 04:35 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | David Hess | 2016/10/22 01:26 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | anon2 | 2016/10/22 05:20 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | David Hess | 2016/10/22 10:31 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | anon2 | 2016/10/23 01:50 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Travis | 2016/10/24 01:26 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | Maynard Handley | 2016/10/24 04:27 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | juanrga | 2016/10/25 10:02 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | David Hess | 2016/10/25 09:59 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | Travis | 2016/10/25 10:22 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | David Hess | 2016/10/25 10:37 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | Travis | 2016/10/30 06:09 PM |
Neat die area comparison image | Gabriele Svelto | 2016/10/26 02:23 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Doug S | 2016/10/26 08:17 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Jukka Larja | 2016/10/27 09:28 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | anon | 2016/10/26 03:32 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | juanrga | 2016/10/23 06:29 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Matthias Waldhauer | 2016/10/22 06:12 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | juanrga | 2016/10/23 05:44 AM |
Neat die area comparison image | Gabriele Svelto | 2016/10/24 02:17 AM |