Still idiotic

By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), January 30, 2017 7:49 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
juanrga (nospam.delete@this.juanrga.com) on January 29, 2017 4:42 am wrote:
> David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com) on January 20, 2017 2:55 pm wrote:
> > gallier2 (gallier2.delete@this.gmx.de) on January 20, 2017 7:48 am wrote:
> > > http://insidehpc.com/2017/01/cray-develop-arm-based-isambard-supercomputer-uk-met-office/
> >
> > The original Mont-blanc project had an idiotic abomination, an
> > Exynos-based supercomputer. AFAICT, it has gone nowhere.
> >
> > While Mont Blanc still appears to be pushing ARM, they have
> > found a much more effective candidate - ThunderX2.
>
> The only "idiotic abomination" I can find is the generalized ignorance of some guys about ARM HPC in general
> and Mont Blanc project in particular. The exynos SoC was selected in a former prototype for exploring
>
the challenges and benefits of deeply integrated energy-efficient processors and GPU accelerators, compared
> to traditional homogeneous multicore systems, and heterogeneous CPU + external GPU architectures.

> If you believed that they would release a final production system based in a Exynos SoC, that
> is your mistake not their. Those guys know very well that those mobile SoCs aren't suitable
> for production machines: lack of ECC protection, slow interconnect, low-grade thermal package,
> 32-bit address space,... "These machines were never intended for production use".

Maybe they should have tried using AMD's Llano, or Intel's client SoCs? Both of those would make more sense than an Exynos.

> Moreover your claim "they have found a much more effective candidate" is priceless. Says us, David,
> how could they explore GPU acceleration on die compared to traditional homogeneous multicore systems
> using a ThunderX2 SoC that is a homogeneous multicore system and lacks any iGPU?

ThunderX2 is closer to being viable for HPC than a cellphone chip ever will. If you want to prototype integrated GPUs only, then just use Intel or AMD.

> Similar claims about the current prototype that uses a ThunderX2 SoC. This is not a
> production system and if "ThunderX2 actually hit targets" or not is rather irrelevant
> for the goals of the Mont Blanc project. If you bother to read the link that you provide,
> you will discover that the goals of this third phase of the project are:
>

    >
  • Defining the architecture of an Exascale-class compute node based on the
    > ARM architecture, and capable of being manufactured at industrial scale;

  • >
  • Assessing the available options for maximum compute efficiency;
    >

  • >
  • Developing the matching software ecosystem to pave the way for market acceptance of ARM solutions.

  • >

> No one with a minimal knowledge of the topic expects an exascale-class system based in 14nm ThunderX2 SoCs.
>

Actually, ThunderX2 hitting targets does matter. If you want compute efficiency, it's good to have a processor that ships on-time, at the target frequency and power consumption. Thunder did none of those. It missed frequency by 25%, power by about 30% and shipping by a couple of quarters.

> > That makes at least three supercomputers using ARM. Honestly, I'm skeptical of a Cavium-based system,
> > until we see ThunderX2 actually hit targets. So far Cavium has a bad track record for delivering on their
> > promises. However, I am very intrigued by Fujitsu's promised Exascale system. They have a good fabric
> > and understand the system architecture in a way that IBM, Intel, or Nvidia do, and Cavium does not.
> >
> > The three ARM systems are all 'national' machines and not bid in a competitive fashion (although
> > that is true of many HPC systems). I think they will be proving grounds, and if vendors can
> > show real success there, they may be able to bid for more competitive systems.
> >
> > One issue I see is that GPUs tend to require even greater performance from the host CPU to keep
> > up with Amdahl's Law. That means that a larger number of cores is less attractive compared to
> > Power9 and Skylake. Also, I expect that server CPUs will start using high-performance DRAM more
> > commonly. Nvidia would love to see an alternative to Xeon, but so far, they don't have one.
> >
>
> Precisely Nvidia is shipping GPGPUs on ARM-based clusters. I have seen some HPC benches specs in the past
> and the GPGPUs were running so fast on former ARM-based systems like on Haswell-based Xeons.

For trivial workloads that have little serial code.

> The CPU was
> not a bottleneck then. Neither it seems the new ThunderX2 will be bottleneck. The Chief Technology Director
> for Extreme Computing at Bull, the company is building the Mont Blanc 3 prototype says:
>
we expect this to be at the performance level of what you could get with an
> Intel Skylake Xeon or an AMD “Naples” Opteron.
>We think that for certain
> HPC applications ThunderX2 will be at that level – and sometimes, better.


I don't believe this guy. Even if I did, Skylake-EP is shipping to customers today for production use. ThunderX2 is not. Is it even sampling?

David
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TopicPosted ByDate
Cray to Develop ARM-based Isambard Supercomputer for UK Met Officegallier22017/01/20 07:48 AM
  Cray to Develop ARM-based Isambard Supercomputer for UK Met Officegallier22017/01/20 07:48 AM
    Ignore second post (NT)gallier22017/01/20 07:49 AM
  ARM-based supercomputersDavid Kanter2017/01/20 02:55 PM
    ARM-based supercomputersMaynard Handley2017/01/20 08:55 PM
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        ARM-based supercomputers lolnone2017/01/21 06:44 PM
          ARM-based supercomputers lolMaynard Handley2017/01/21 07:36 PM
            ARM-based supercomputers lolMichael S2017/01/22 02:07 AM
            What did you learn?Innocent Bystander2017/01/22 08:26 AM
          ARM-based supercomputers lolanon2017/01/22 02:24 AM
            ARM-based supercomputers lolGabriele Svelto2017/01/23 12:53 AM
              ARM-based supercomputers lolanon2017/01/23 06:40 AM
            ARM-based supercomputers loljuanrga2017/01/29 05:01 AM
              ARM-based supercomputers lolanon2017/01/29 09:35 AM
        ARM-based supercomputers lolBrendan2017/01/21 07:36 PM
         Dumb belief? ROFL (NT)juanrga2017/01/22 02:59 AM
          Dumb belief? ROFLwumpus2017/01/22 11:31 AM
            Dumb belief? ROFLjuanrga2017/01/29 05:13 AM
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              A73 does not have L1 ECCMichael S2017/01/23 03:50 PM
              A73 does not have L1 ECCdmcq2017/01/24 08:15 AM
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              X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryWilco2017/01/24 02:13 AM
                You seem to be confusing "SoC" with "CPU core" (NT)Anon2017/01/24 03:12 AM
                X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryMichael S2017/01/24 05:26 AM
                  X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memorydmcq2017/01/24 08:28 AM
                X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryAaron Spink2017/01/24 06:46 AM
                  X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryWilco2017/01/24 03:10 PM
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                X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memorySimon Farnsworth2017/01/26 02:23 AM
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                X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryAnon2017/01/24 01:54 PM
                  X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryWilco2017/01/24 03:07 PM
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                      X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memorynone2017/01/24 10:48 PM
                        X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryMichael S2017/01/25 01:32 AM
                        X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryDavid Hess2017/01/25 09:47 PM
                          X-Gene 3 supports 1TB of memoryMichael S2017/01/26 12:55 AM
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                              Really that different?none2017/01/26 05:39 AM
                                Really that different?itsmydamnation2017/01/26 03:55 PM
                                  Really that different?none2017/01/26 11:14 PM
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                                              off die eDRAM?anon2017/01/29 09:46 AM
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                                                On topic summary and my thoughts on it. Jouni Osmala2017/01/31 01:10 PM
                                                  On topic summary and my thoughts on it. Ireland2017/01/31 01:27 PM
                                              Sharing between servers and phonesLinus Torvalds2017/01/31 01:01 PM
                                                Sharing between servers and phonesLinus Torvalds2017/01/31 01:49 PM
                                                  Sharing between servers and phonesDoug S2017/01/31 02:12 PM
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              ARM-based supercomputersAaron Spink2017/01/24 07:20 AM
                ARM-based supercomputersdmcq2017/01/24 08:44 AM
                  ARM-based supercomputersnone2017/01/24 09:10 AM
                  ARM-based supercomputersjuanrga2017/01/29 05:33 AM
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                ARM-based supercomputersRichardC2017/01/24 09:34 AM
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                              You can keep a coal furnace fed all the time.Ireland2017/01/25 03:36 PM
                                You can keep a coal furnace fed all the time.anon2017/01/27 03:29 AM
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                                    You can keep a coal furnace fed all the time.Ireland2017/01/27 10:59 AM
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                              video renderingIreland2017/01/26 12:49 PM
                                video renderingIreland2017/01/26 12:58 PM
                                video renderingRichardC2017/01/26 03:24 PM
                                  video renderingIreland2017/01/26 05:09 PM
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                            video renderingIreland2017/01/25 03:26 PM
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                              cloud network infrastructureAaron Spink2017/01/26 07:37 PM
                ARM-based supercomputersGabriele Svelto2017/01/24 12:40 PM
                  ARM-based supercomputersAaron Spink2017/01/24 08:00 PM
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          ARM-based supercomputersGabriele Svelto2017/01/23 01:03 AM
            ARM-based supercomputersRichardC2017/01/23 06:57 AM
      ARM-based supercomputersGabriele Svelto2017/01/23 03:23 AM
    Mont blanc project and ARM HPC in generaljuanrga2017/01/29 04:42 AM
      Juan, why do you have to be such an arrogant twat to the person who provides this forum? (NT)Annoyed2017/01/30 02:32 AM
      Still idioticDavid Kanter2017/01/30 07:49 AM
        Still idioticMr. Camel2017/01/30 08:16 PM
        Still idioticjuanrga2017/02/02 08:11 AM
      Mont blanc project and ARM HPC in generalIreland2017/01/31 04:53 PM
        Four Things to Consider Ireland2017/01/31 05:11 PM
          Four Things to Consider tarlinian2017/01/31 06:38 PM
            Four Things to Consider Ireland2017/01/31 06:58 PM
              no evidence that it goes on a shipRichardC2017/02/01 06:05 AM
                no evidence that it goes on a shipIreland2017/02/02 01:57 PM
                  no evidence that it goes on a shipRichardC2017/02/03 06:04 AM
                    no evidence that it goes on a shipIreland2017/02/03 08:02 AM
              A better place to site a supercomputerAnon2017/02/01 06:57 AM
                A better place to site a supercomputerIreland2017/02/01 06:37 PM
                  A better Ireland..Anon2017/02/01 07:52 PM
                    A better Ireland..slacker2017/02/01 10:32 PM
                    A better Ireland..Ireland2017/02/02 04:06 AM
                    He is manic (NT)anonymo2017/02/02 12:21 PM
                      or a botanon2017/02/02 02:17 PM
                        or a botanonymou52017/02/02 03:46 PM
                        or a botnone2017/02/02 10:45 PM
                          or a botanon2017/02/03 09:30 AM
                        Better bot example: amanfrommars1Doug S2017/02/03 10:44 AM
            Make allowances, the man never sleeps..Anon2017/01/31 08:22 PM
        Mont blanc project and ARM HPC in generaletudiant2017/02/02 08:39 AM
          Mont blanc project and ARM HPC in generalIreland2017/02/02 11:12 AM
            Connection between two different modelsIreland2017/02/02 11:18 AM
              Connection between two different modelsetudiant2017/02/04 02:40 PM
                Connection between two different modelsRichardC2017/02/06 08:36 AM
                  Connection between two different modelsdmcq2017/02/06 10:07 AM
                  Connection between two different modelsIreland2017/02/06 11:17 AM
                    probably not the right forum ...RichardC2017/02/06 12:31 PM
                      probably not the right forum ...Ireland2017/02/06 01:53 PM
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