Ryzen fiasco

By: majord (majord.delete@this.gmail.com), March 15, 2017 6:09 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
juanrga (nos.delete@this.juanrga.com) on March 15, 2017 3:21 am wrote:
> majord (majord.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 14, 2017 8:25 pm wrote:
> > juanrga (no.delete@this.juanrga.com) on March 14, 2017 5:05 am wrote:
> > > Gabriele Svelto (gabriele.svelto.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 13, 2017 2:54 pm wrote:
> > > > juanrga (no.delete@this.juanrga.com) on March 13, 2017 10:38 am wrote:
> > > > > That real TDP of RyZen is the reason why its dissipation
> > > > > is much closer to a (125W) FX-8370 than to (91W) i7-6700k.
> > > >
> > > > There is no such thing as a "real TDP". Intel and AMD have different definitions. What you can
> > > > claim is that a 1800X consumes more than an i7-6700k or a FX-8370 at a given workload (and for
> > > > a given performance). But that has nothing to do with the TDP whose definition changes from vendor
> > > > to vendor and it does not represent an expectation of the actual power consumption of a processor
> > > > (and is often meaningless even when comparing processors of the same family).
> > > >
> > >
> > > No. The existence of different conventions/definitions doesn't imply measurements
> > > aren't "real". And once again you selectively quote me ignoring the other issues,
> > > including the fact AMD is violating its own definition of TDP:
> > >
> > > 1) The "95W" on RyZen chips is a marketing label that fooled certain people, which believed
> > > that RyZen was super-efficient design. People in this same forum pretended that 1800X
> > > RyZen was 60% more efficient than Broadwell-E 6900k... nothing more far from reality,
> > > because the 1800X is about 15% less efficient than the 6900k: 16.78 vs 19.40.
> > >
> > > 2) AMD sent two "95W" QS for validation, because one of them wasn't a real 95W chip. The chip
> > > identified itself as 95W, but even disabling turbo/XFR the real TDP of the sample was noticeable
> > > higher. I estimated it would be about 106W and CanardPC confirmed real TDP was 105W
> > >
> > > https://mobile.twitter.com/CPCHardware/status/828666744432652290/actions
> > > https://mobile.twitter.com/CPCHardware/status/832575767490023428?p=p
> > >
> > > 3) AMD "95W" retail chip at stock settings consumes about same amount of power
> > > (more in several cases) than AMD 125W chips like the FX-8350 and 8370
> > >
> > > AMD "95W" --> 128.9W
> > > AMD "125W" --> 125W
> > >
> > > 4) TDP numbers is not the only element where AMD has tried
> > > to fool us: IPC claims, XFR claims, and general gaming
> > > performance are other aspects where AMD has shared marketing numbers that don't correspond to reality.
> >
> > Indeed they did fool us on IPC.. they said 40% for years, then gave us ~50.. bastards!
>
> They said 40% over Excavator and many people believed that 40% over Excavator was an average
> value that did mean ~70% over Piledriver. However, that 40% was on a specific bench that is
> very dependent on cache. They sandbagged the Excavator number, because the final score was
> 64% for Excavator in that same bench. But the Piledriver percentage was much smaller in that
> bench: the official 52% over Piledriver that Lisa Su gave us at the RyZen tech day.
>
> Also you omit all those slides where AMD pretended that RyZen IPC was
> at the Broadwell-level and reviews unable to reproduce AMD claims,
>
> PCWorld: "My own tests don’t quite match AMD’s results."
>
> PCPER: "Still, the 8% gap between the 6900K and the Ryzen 7 1800X at 3.5 GHz
> tells me that AMD’s claims of equal IPC appear to have been overstated."
>
> Same thoughts about total throughput. AMD demos suggested RyZen was 2--10%
> above Broadwell-E. Reality is RyZen is 10% below Broadwell-E.
>
> And better we omit the fiasco on gaming or how AMD tried to manipulate reviews.


I honestly am not sure what you're getting at regarding IPC claims. Simply meeting the 40% > Excavator goal makes Zen over 50% faster than Piledriver by default (since Excavator has close to 10% IPC adv over PD.. do the maths). Yet you've already conceeded AMD beat their claim..

And No i'm not omitting any slides, I am unaware of any claiming equal ST IPC to Broadwell outside of cinebench (though not even sure that was a clk/clk claim.. pretty sure it was just SKU vs SKU)

Throughput wise, AMD claimed Ryzen matches Broadwell in specific benchmarks, all of which were Rendering and Encoding, and review after review has proven that it indeed does.. Cinebench, Handbrake, Blender, all popular MT workloads easily matching or beating BW-E. but these aren't even cherry picked.. Many many other workloads also showing this.

The clock for clock tests on PCPER are not even exclusively throughput, they're a mixture, and a very small selection of tests so why are you referencing them? , regardless though, if you actually look at the individual tests, you'll see Ryzen trading blows in throughput.

It's not all rosy of course.. no one's denying BW and SL cores walk away once AVX2 is involved, nor when Ryzen's sub-optimal memory subsystem shows its weakeness (Read - archiving, games etc) but your claim of trailing by 10% across the board is pure fiction.










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TopicPosted ByDate
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                    Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/07 02:09 AM
                      Intel's underwhelming core innovationsMichael S2017/03/07 03:05 AM
                        Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/07 05:18 AM
                          Intel's underwhelming core innovationsVertexMaster2017/03/07 07:28 AM
                            Intel's underwhelming core innovationsJukka Larja2017/03/07 10:09 AM
                              Intel's underwhelming core innovationsanon2017/03/07 11:20 AM
                              Intel's underwhelming core innovationsVertexMaster2017/03/07 11:31 AM
                                Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/07 02:37 PM
                            Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/07 02:32 PM
                              Intel's underwhelming core innovationsVertexMaster2017/03/07 03:06 PM
                                Intel's underwhelming core innovationsMaynard Handley2017/03/07 04:41 PM
                                Intel's underwhelming core innovationsJukka Larja2017/03/08 08:33 AM
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                                    Intel's underwhelming core innovationswumpus2017/03/09 07:28 AM
                                    Intel's underwhelming core innovationsJukka Larja2017/03/09 08:04 AM
                Intel's underwhelming core innovationsJukka Larja2017/03/07 10:35 AM
              Intel's underwhelming core innovationsMichael_S2017/03/06 01:43 PM
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          Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/06 01:57 AM
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        Intel's underwhelming core innovationsTravis2017/03/05 12:15 PM
        Intel's underwhelming core innovationsGabriele Svelto2017/03/05 12:41 PM
          Intel's underwhelming core innovationsJouni Osmala2017/03/07 12:24 AM
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    Back to futureTravis2017/03/05 12:21 PM
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    Intel's underwhelming core innovationsanon2017/03/05 03:21 PM
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                My Firefox shows blank frames in place of results (NT)Michael S2017/03/06 03:20 AM
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                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Power - More DataAlberto2017/03/06 02:23 PM
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              Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerDoug S2017/03/05 11:42 PM
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                  You still are. (NT)Megol2017/03/06 08:53 AM
              Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerHans de Vries2017/03/06 02:51 AM
                Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/06 12:47 PM
              Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 06:09 AM
                Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/06 07:50 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 08:09 AM
                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/06 08:31 AM
                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 08:58 AM
                        Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/06 10:09 AM
                          Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerBlue2017/03/06 10:22 AM
                            Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/06 10:42 AM
                              Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAdrian2017/03/07 02:44 AM
                                Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/07 03:11 AM
                                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAdrian2017/03/07 04:05 AM
                                    Naples presentation published at servethehome.com (NT)Adrian2017/03/07 07:47 AM
                                      Naples presentation published at servethehome.comAdrian2017/03/07 08:07 AM
                          Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powergallier22017/03/06 10:31 AM
                          Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 12:37 PM
              Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerFoyle2017/03/06 06:17 AM
              Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/06 12:25 PM
                Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerhobel2017/03/08 02:13 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMichael S2017/03/08 03:11 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerSimon Farnsworth2017/03/08 04:50 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAdrian2017/03/08 06:11 AM
                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerhobel2017/03/08 06:47 AM
                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerTravis2017/03/08 01:47 PM
                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerWilco2017/03/08 04:08 PM
                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAdrian2017/03/09 03:29 AM
                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAdrian2017/03/09 03:58 AM
                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerRicardo B2017/03/12 11:54 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/09 12:52 PM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerDavid Hess2017/03/09 07:14 PM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerRicardo B2017/03/12 11:42 AM
                AMD admits 128W and 90W real TDP for RyZenjuanrga2017/03/25 06:34 AM
                  Coud you please stop your bullshit?Heikki Kultala2017/03/25 07:25 AM
                    X399 official TDP 180W (>200W real TDP)juanrga2017/03/25 09:17 PM
                      wow that's a lot for a chipset (NT)Eric Bron2017/03/28 02:49 AM
                  I already wrote that, why can't you read?anon2017/03/26 01:48 AM
                    AMD admits 128W and 90W real TDP for RyZenjuanrga2017/03/26 04:44 AM
                      I love how you went to the effort of changing the topic back, you child. (NT)Anon2017/03/26 06:40 AM
                      You don't have any idea about thermodynamics eitheranon2017/03/26 09:32 AM
                        You don't have any idea about thermodynamics eitherAlberto2017/03/27 05:39 AM
                          You don't have any idea about thermodynamics eitherjuanrga2017/04/01 05:19 AM
                        You don't have any ideajuanrga2017/04/01 05:45 AM
                          You don't have any ideaanon2017/04/01 08:39 AM
                      AMD admits 128W and 90W real TDP for RyZenhobel2017/03/27 08:20 AM
                        AMD admits 128W and 90W real TDP for RyZenMegol2017/03/30 09:23 AM
            Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/06 12:35 PM
              Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 12:45 PM
                Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/06 12:59 PM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/06 01:10 PM
                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/06 06:20 PM
                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/07 02:38 AM
                        Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/07 05:35 AM
                          Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/07 06:03 AM
                            Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/07 11:28 AM
                              Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/07 12:07 PM
                                Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/07 04:34 PM
                                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/07 04:59 PM
                                    Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAlberto2017/03/08 04:59 PM
                                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE Poweranon2017/03/09 03:33 AM
                                        Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerAlberto2017/03/09 07:50 AM
                                          bullshit on ryzen apu release timeheikki kultala2017/03/09 09:18 PM
                                            Problems in mobile line.....shhhhhAlberto2017/03/11 12:54 AM
                                          Ryzen vs BroadwellE PowerMatthias Waldhauer2017/03/11 03:21 PM
                                            Timelines? What timelines?juanrga2017/03/12 05:40 AM
                                              Timelines? What timelines?Matthias Waldhauer2017/03/26 09:31 AM
                                                Timelines? What timelines?juanrga2017/04/01 05:23 AM
                                      Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powermuziqaz2017/03/09 04:12 AM
                                        Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerjuanrga2017/03/09 12:47 PM
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                                              Ryzen fiascoblue2017/03/11 08:57 AM
                                                Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/12 05:51 AM
                                                  Ryzen fiascoanon2017/03/12 08:18 AM
                                                    Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/12 09:14 AM
                                                      Ryzen fiascoAlberto2017/03/12 10:33 AM
                                                      Ryzen fiascomajord2017/03/12 10:26 PM
                                                        Ryzen fiascoMegol2017/03/13 04:50 AM
                                                        Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/13 10:14 AM
                                                          Ryzen fiascomajord2017/03/14 07:51 PM
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                                                              Power matters servers, not consumerblue2017/03/16 09:22 PM
                                                                Power matters servers, not consumerjuanrga2017/03/18 12:32 PM
                                                                  <105W over 13 resultsblue2017/03/18 08:02 PM
                                                                    <105W over 13 results (only in your imagination))juanrga2017/03/19 06:07 AM
                                                                      you confirm 105W *doh*Blue2017/03/19 04:00 PM
                                                                        you confirm 105W *doh* (only in your imagination) (NT)juanrga2017/03/20 03:35 AM
                                                  Ryzen fiascoGabriele Svelto2017/03/12 01:25 PM
                                                    Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/13 10:38 AM
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                                                        Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/14 05:05 AM
                                                          Ryzen brings back the fight to PC marketmuziqaz2017/03/14 08:09 AM
                                                            Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/15 03:56 AM
                                                              Ryzen fiascoBrendan2017/03/15 09:59 AM
                                                          Ryzen fiascomajord2017/03/14 08:25 PM
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                                                              Ryzen fiascomajord2017/03/15 06:09 PM
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                                                                  Ryzen fiascomajord2017/03/16 03:34 PM
                                                                    Ryzen fiascoblue2017/03/16 09:28 PM
                                                                    Ryzen fiascojuanrga2017/03/18 01:10 PM
                                                                      HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCblue2017/03/20 12:41 PM
                                                                        HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCGabriele Svelto2017/03/20 03:08 PM
                                                                          HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCMichael S2017/03/20 03:26 PM
                                                                            HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCGabriele Svelto2017/03/20 04:39 PM
                                                                            HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCJukka Larja2017/03/21 07:53 AM
                                                                        HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCKlimax2017/03/21 12:33 AM
                                                                          HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCDomaldel2017/03/21 01:41 AM
                                                                            HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCanon2017/03/21 11:13 AM
                                                                          HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCMichael S2017/03/21 02:33 AM
                                                                        HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCEmil Briggs2017/03/21 11:03 AM
                                                                          HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCMichael S2017/03/21 11:23 AM
                                                                            HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCEmil Briggs2017/03/21 11:39 AM
                                                                              HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCGabriele Svelto2017/03/23 08:10 AM
                                                                                HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCEmil Briggs2017/03/23 06:30 PM
                                                                                  HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCGabriele Svelto2017/03/24 03:13 AM
                                                                                    HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCIreland2017/03/24 03:06 PM
                                                                                  HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCAdrian2017/03/24 07:16 AM
                                                                                    HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCEmil Briggs2017/03/24 01:53 PM
                                                                                      HPC relative to consumers, not professional/HPCAdrian2017/03/25 03:04 AM
                  Ryzen vs BroadwellE Powerblue2017/03/06 04:29 PM
      LinkAlberto2017/03/06 06:30 AM
        Link.....sorryAlberto2017/03/06 06:32 AM
          Link.....sorryanon2017/03/06 08:21 AM
            Link.....sorryAlberto2017/03/06 02:11 PM
            Link.....sorryAlberto2017/03/06 02:42 PM
              Link.....sorryanon2017/03/06 04:06 PM
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