A76

By: Travis (travis.downs.delete@this.gmail.com), August 19, 2018 2:07 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on August 19, 2018 12:22 pm wrote:
>
> It depends on HOW your system is organized. Consider the current iPhone, which appears (as far as I can
> tell) to have a low latency (12..15 cycle or so) large L2 that covers the large+small CPUs (but not the
> GPU or IO). For that sort of system "near remote" atomics seem like a pretty good win for many purposes.

Why are they a win? Even if you can do it all in L2, you are probably doubling the cost or worse.

> Half of ARC references are remote only (increments); the other half depend on the

You chose a convenient naming here: "remote only" - but you really mean "the result is not examined, right"? Why do it remotely when you could do it locally which is much faster? After you increment, you are probably decrementing most of the time pretty soon, so even more reason to bring it into the cache.

> result (decrements, testing against zero). I don't know, given GCD usage these days,
> how much transitioning there is between CPUs (including large to small CPUs).

Probably less one out of a million decrements are done on a thread (not CPU) different than the one that incremented it. Most reference counts probably never exceed two and are never shared. That's just the overwhelming use of references/pointers/smart-pointers in every language.

Of course sometimes you migrate CPUs, but then you are talking about the huge cost of moving over all the core-private caches (perhaps just L1 in the A* cores case), so having a few lines living in L2 helps pretty much not at all (logically, that "migrated cores" argument leads to getting rid of the L1 entirely and keeping everything in L2 just because of core migration - an obvious non-starter).

Also, the reference count is presumably tightly packed with the object data itself, or other interesting, unshared data in the same cache line: so it's not like you can just point at the reference count and force it to live in L2, since it applies to the entire line.

Note the level that sharing occurs at doesn't really matter much for this argument: closer to the core sharing makes "remote" atomics faster, but it also means the downside of the normal local atomics when actual sharing occurs is much less so the gain for remote in that scenario is correspondingly reduced.

> I also don't know how much quasi-common "occasionally" updated material (like comm-pages, and OS data structures)
> exists that's best thought of and treated as living in common L2 rather than on a particular CPU.

Practically nothing. Again you are begging the argument by implicitly linking "quasi-common occasionally updated material" with "best thought of and treated as living in common L2". That's the problem. Common, rarely updated data is best living right next to the core(s) that need it, just like all other data: duplicated in many L1s if needed. You don't screw the common case (loads of the shared lines directly from L1), just to speed up the uncommon update case.

>
> I've become extremely cynical about people who insist that the one right way of doing things
> just happens to be what Intel and Linux are doing right now. After viewing that space for 30
> years, I've concluded that they're both very good at optimizing for their local minimum, but
> are both not especially good at the visionary thing, at asking "how could we optimize globally
> if we were willing to give up on the following N aspects of backward compatibility".
> They both own very good microscopes --- and lousy telescopes.

Intel and Linux? It has nothing to do with this. Every CPU implements it this way and every OS uses those features. I guarantee you that Apple, ARM, IBM, AMD, etc designs all implement atomic operations as quick "local" operations because it's the obvious best way to do it for common use.

Stop using that argument to hand-wave away other people's argument (especially when they weren't talking about Intel or Linux at all): if your idea has merit, argue it on its merits. Here your idea is shit and you just don't want admit it.
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TopicPosted ByDate
ARM turns to a god and a heroAM2018/08/16 09:32 AM
  ARM turns to a god and a heroMaynard Handley2018/08/16 09:41 AM
    ARM turns to a god and a heroDoug S2018/08/16 11:11 AM
    ARM turns to a god and a heroGeoff Langdale2018/08/16 11:59 PM
      ARM turns to a god and a herodmcq2018/08/17 05:12 AM
  ARM is somewhat misleadingAdrian2018/08/16 11:56 PM
    It's marketing materialGabriele Svelto2018/08/17 01:00 AM
      It's marketing materialMichael S2018/08/17 03:13 AM
        It's marketing materialdmcq2018/08/17 05:23 AM
          It's marketing materialAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 07:25 AM
        It's marketing materialLinus Torvalds2018/08/17 11:20 AM
          It's marketing materialGroo2018/08/17 01:44 PM
            It's marketing materialDoug S2018/08/17 02:14 PM
          promises and deliveriesAM2018/08/17 02:32 PM
            promises and deliveriesPassing Through2018/08/17 03:02 PM
              Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/17 03:15 PM
                Just by way of clarification AM2018/08/18 12:49 PM
                  Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/18 01:34 PM
                    This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/08/18 01:54 PM
                      This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/08/18 02:50 PM
                        This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/08/18 03:57 PM
                          This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/09/06 02:42 PM
                            This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/09/07 04:10 PM
                              This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/09/07 04:48 PM
                                This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/09/07 05:22 PM
                Just by way of clarification Wilco2018/08/18 01:26 PM
                  Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/18 01:39 PM
                  Just by way of clarification none2018/08/18 10:52 PM
                    Just by way of clarification dmcq2018/08/19 08:32 AM
                      Just by way of clarification none2018/08/19 08:54 AM
                        Just by way of clarification dmcq2018/08/19 11:24 AM
                          Just by way of clarification none2018/08/19 11:52 AM
                  Just by way of clarification Gabriele Svelto2018/08/19 06:41 AM
                    Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/19 09:25 AM
                      Whiteboards at Gatwick airport anyone? Passing Through2018/08/20 04:24 AM
          It's marketing materialMichael S2018/08/18 11:12 AM
          It's marketing materialBrett2018/08/18 05:22 PM
            It's marketing materialBrett2018/08/18 05:33 PM
              It's marketing materialAdrian2018/08/19 01:21 AM
        A76AM2018/08/17 02:45 PM
          A76Michael S2018/08/18 11:20 AM
            A76AM2018/08/18 12:39 PM
              A76Michael S2018/08/18 12:49 PM
                A76AM2018/08/18 01:06 PM
                  A76Doug S2018/08/18 01:43 PM
                    A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:42 PM
                      A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 04:22 PM
                        Why write zeros when one can use metadata?Paul A. Clayton2018/08/18 06:19 PM
                          Why write zeros when one can use metadata?Maynard Handley2018/08/19 11:12 AM
                            Dictionary compress might apply to memcopyPaul A. Clayton2018/08/19 01:45 PM
                        Instructions for zeroingKonrad Schwarz2018/08/30 06:37 AM
                          Instructions for zeroingMaynard Handley2018/08/30 08:41 AM
                          Instructions for zeroingAdrian2018/08/30 11:37 AM
                            dcbz -> dcbzl (was: Instructions for zeroing)hobold2018/08/31 01:50 AM
                              dcbz -> dcbzl (was: Instructions for zeroing)dmcq2018/09/01 05:28 AM
                      A76Travis2018/08/19 11:36 AM
                        A76Maynard Handley2018/08/19 12:22 PM
                          A76Travis2018/08/19 02:07 PM
                            A76Maynard Handley2018/08/19 06:24 PM
                        Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 12:51 PM
                          Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 01:58 PM
                            Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 02:32 PM
                              Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 02:36 PM
                                Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 02:48 PM
                                  Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 03:16 PM
                                    Remote atomicsRicardo B2018/08/20 10:05 AM
                            Remote atomicsdmcq2018/08/19 02:33 PM
                          Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/19 02:32 PM
                            Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 02:46 PM
                              Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/19 05:35 PM
                                Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/20 03:29 AM
                            Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 07:58 PM
                              Remote atomicsanon2018/08/20 12:59 AM
                                Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/20 10:26 AM
                              Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/20 09:57 AM
                              Remote atomicsLinus Torvalds2018/08/20 04:29 PM
                                Fitting time slices to execution phasesPaul A. Clayton2018/08/21 09:09 AM
                                  Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 02:34 PM
                                    Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 03:31 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesGabriele Svelto2018/08/21 03:54 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 04:26 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:21 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 04:39 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:59 PM
                                            Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 05:13 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesanon2018/08/21 04:27 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 06:02 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesEtienne2018/08/22 02:28 AM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesGabriele Svelto2018/08/22 03:07 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/22 04:00 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesanon2018/08/22 06:52 PM
                                    Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:37 PM
                                    Is preventing misuse that complex?Paul A. Clayton2018/08/23 05:42 AM
                                      Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/23 12:46 PM
                                        Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 01:29 PM
                                          Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 01:33 PM
                                            Is preventing misuse that complex?Jeff S.2018/08/24 07:57 AM
                                              Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/24 08:47 AM
                                          Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/23 02:30 PM
                                            Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 03:11 PM
                                              Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/24 01:00 PM
                                                Is preventing misuse that complex?Gabriele Svelto2018/08/24 01:25 PM
                                                  Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/24 01:33 PM
                                  Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 03:54 PM
                                rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 03:18 PM
                                  rseq: holy grail rwlock?Linus Torvalds2018/08/21 03:59 PM
                                    rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 04:27 PM
                                      rseq: holy grail rwlock?Linus Torvalds2018/08/21 05:10 PM
                                        rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 06:21 PM
                  ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/21 05:07 AM
                    ARM design housesWilco2018/08/22 12:38 PM
                      ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/22 02:21 PM
                        ARM design housesWilco2018/08/22 03:23 PM
                          ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/29 01:58 AM
                            Qualcomm's core naming scheme really, really sucksHeikki Kultala2018/08/29 02:19 AM
                A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:07 PM
                  A76Michael S2018/08/18 02:32 PM
                    A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:52 PM
                      A76Michael S2018/08/18 03:04 PM
    ARM is somewhat misleadingjuanrga2018/08/17 01:20 AM
    Surprised??Alberto2018/08/17 01:52 AM
      Surprised??Alberto2018/08/17 02:10 AM
      Surprised??none2018/08/17 02:46 AM
      Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 07:30 AM
        Garbage talkMichael S2018/08/17 07:43 AM
          Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:51 AM
            Garbage talkMichael S2018/08/18 11:29 AM
        Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 08:28 AM
          Garbage talkAlberto2018/08/17 09:20 AM
          Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:48 AM
            Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 10:17 AM
              Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 10:36 AM
                Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 02:53 PM
                  Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/18 12:17 AM
        More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Alberto2018/08/17 09:13 AM
          More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Andrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:34 AM
            More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Alberto2018/08/17 10:03 AM
              More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Andrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 10:43 AM
              More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Doug S2018/08/17 02:17 PM
              15W phone SoCsAM2018/08/17 03:04 PM
          More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Maynard Handley2018/08/17 12:29 PM
  my future stuff will be better than your old stuff, hey I'm a god at last (NT)Eric Bron2018/08/18 03:34 AM
    my future stuff will be better than your old stuff, hey I'm a god at lastnone2018/08/18 08:34 AM
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