Is preventing misuse that complex?

By: Travis (travis.downs.delete@this.gmail.com), August 23, 2018 3:11 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on August 23, 2018 2:30 pm wrote:
> Travis (travis.downs.delete@this.gmail.com) on August 23, 2018 1:29 pm wrote:
> >
> > It is not idiotic and no one was asking for a guarantee. This not an rseq-type thing
>
> Ok, so it has absolutely nothing to do with what rseq does,
> and shouldn't have been brought up as an alternative.

I don't think it was really presented as an alternative: it just happens to fit into the general theme of "stuff that helps or is related to concurrency and where the kernel could maybe help out" and is interesting to discuss[1]. These isn't an rseq patch RFC on LKML after all: it's a discussion that started about out ARM laptops, had a subthread where Maynard and I argued about remote atomics and where you brought up rseq.

[1] You could be right, but I'm too lazy to go back and lawyer-read the start of the sub-thread to see, but I wasn't presenting it as an alternative.

> Without the time slice guarantee it is purely about bad locking needing help. Your "turning it from 100% to rare"
> argument is bogus too, since a context switch is so (relatively) rare to begin with that this can only help
> if your locking is really broken and this triggers so much that it likely triggers the next time too.

Yes it's all relative. Context switches are rare enough, but if you're running at HZ = 250 that's thousands of events every day if there is one lock you spend 0.01% of your time in. It's still an event every day if you spend 0.000005% of your time in the lock.

Don't think in averages, think in number of outliers.


> Just fix the locking. Don't ask for crazy hacks that add no value except to your broken shit.
>
> Because if you do, sane OS people will tell you to pound sand instead of asking
> for garbage that we have to support forever, whether it makes sense or not.

I mean there was probably a time where you'd have considered rseq a "crazy hack", so...

I'm not asking for anything, just throwing around ideas. Real development as it happens almost everywhere is full of crazy hacks. It's easy to claim without proof that anything that doesn't work as you'd like is broken. "Fix the locking" often corresponds to people trying even crazier lock-free stuff that ends up being more fragile or just broken (but there's a place for that too).

The OS has an easy out for no longer implementing stuff like membarrier() or rseq() or crazy_hack() - just return ENOSYS, just it does today on various minor platforms that people can't be bothered to add support for, or on old kernels or whatever.

Here's another idea for you to shit on...

If the op_vec stuff gets merged, you could implement the lock-friendly context switches by using a variant of the op_vec mechanism: have the kernel itself either "roll back" or "roll forward" the lock body when it wants to schedule a thread that is in the body. This only works for small bodies, but maybe the compiler could decide that. We all know the compiler always makes the right decisions...


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TopicPosted ByDate
ARM turns to a god and a heroAM2018/08/16 09:32 AM
  ARM turns to a god and a heroMaynard Handley2018/08/16 09:41 AM
    ARM turns to a god and a heroDoug S2018/08/16 11:11 AM
    ARM turns to a god and a heroGeoff Langdale2018/08/16 11:59 PM
      ARM turns to a god and a herodmcq2018/08/17 05:12 AM
  ARM is somewhat misleadingAdrian2018/08/16 11:56 PM
    It's marketing materialGabriele Svelto2018/08/17 01:00 AM
      It's marketing materialMichael S2018/08/17 03:13 AM
        It's marketing materialdmcq2018/08/17 05:23 AM
          It's marketing materialAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 07:25 AM
        It's marketing materialLinus Torvalds2018/08/17 11:20 AM
          It's marketing materialGroo2018/08/17 01:44 PM
            It's marketing materialDoug S2018/08/17 02:14 PM
          promises and deliveriesAM2018/08/17 02:32 PM
            promises and deliveriesPassing Through2018/08/17 03:02 PM
              Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/17 03:15 PM
                Just by way of clarification AM2018/08/18 12:49 PM
                  Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/18 01:34 PM
                    This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/08/18 01:54 PM
                      This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/08/18 02:50 PM
                        This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/08/18 03:57 PM
                          This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/09/06 02:42 PM
                            This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/09/07 04:10 PM
                              This ain't the nineties any longerPassing Through2018/09/07 04:48 PM
                                This ain't the nineties any longerMaynard Handley2018/09/07 05:22 PM
                Just by way of clarification Wilco2018/08/18 01:26 PM
                  Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/18 01:39 PM
                  Just by way of clarification none2018/08/18 10:52 PM
                    Just by way of clarification dmcq2018/08/19 08:32 AM
                      Just by way of clarification none2018/08/19 08:54 AM
                        Just by way of clarification dmcq2018/08/19 11:24 AM
                          Just by way of clarification none2018/08/19 11:52 AM
                  Just by way of clarification Gabriele Svelto2018/08/19 06:41 AM
                    Just by way of clarification Passing Through2018/08/19 09:25 AM
                      Whiteboards at Gatwick airport anyone? Passing Through2018/08/20 04:24 AM
          It's marketing materialMichael S2018/08/18 11:12 AM
          It's marketing materialBrett2018/08/18 05:22 PM
            It's marketing materialBrett2018/08/18 05:33 PM
              It's marketing materialAdrian2018/08/19 01:21 AM
        A76AM2018/08/17 02:45 PM
          A76Michael S2018/08/18 11:20 AM
            A76AM2018/08/18 12:39 PM
              A76Michael S2018/08/18 12:49 PM
                A76AM2018/08/18 01:06 PM
                  A76Doug S2018/08/18 01:43 PM
                    A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:42 PM
                      A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 04:22 PM
                        Why write zeros when one can use metadata?Paul A. Clayton2018/08/18 06:19 PM
                          Why write zeros when one can use metadata?Maynard Handley2018/08/19 11:12 AM
                            Dictionary compress might apply to memcopyPaul A. Clayton2018/08/19 01:45 PM
                        Instructions for zeroingKonrad Schwarz2018/08/30 06:37 AM
                          Instructions for zeroingMaynard Handley2018/08/30 08:41 AM
                          Instructions for zeroingAdrian2018/08/30 11:37 AM
                            dcbz -> dcbzl (was: Instructions for zeroing)hobold2018/08/31 01:50 AM
                              dcbz -> dcbzl (was: Instructions for zeroing)dmcq2018/09/01 05:28 AM
                      A76Travis2018/08/19 11:36 AM
                        A76Maynard Handley2018/08/19 12:22 PM
                          A76Travis2018/08/19 02:07 PM
                            A76Maynard Handley2018/08/19 06:24 PM
                        Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 12:51 PM
                          Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 01:58 PM
                            Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 02:32 PM
                              Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 02:36 PM
                                Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 02:48 PM
                                  Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 03:16 PM
                                    Remote atomicsRicardo B2018/08/20 10:05 AM
                            Remote atomicsdmcq2018/08/19 02:33 PM
                          Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/19 02:32 PM
                            Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/19 02:46 PM
                              Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/19 05:35 PM
                                Remote atomicsMichael S2018/08/20 03:29 AM
                            Remote atomicsmatthew2018/08/19 07:58 PM
                              Remote atomicsanon2018/08/20 12:59 AM
                                Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/20 10:26 AM
                              Remote atomicsTravis2018/08/20 09:57 AM
                              Remote atomicsLinus Torvalds2018/08/20 04:29 PM
                                Fitting time slices to execution phasesPaul A. Clayton2018/08/21 09:09 AM
                                  Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 02:34 PM
                                    Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 03:31 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesGabriele Svelto2018/08/21 03:54 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 04:26 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:21 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 04:39 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:59 PM
                                            Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 05:13 PM
                                      Fitting time slices to execution phasesanon2018/08/21 04:27 PM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesLinus Torvalds2018/08/21 06:02 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesEtienne2018/08/22 02:28 AM
                                        Fitting time slices to execution phasesGabriele Svelto2018/08/22 03:07 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/22 04:00 PM
                                          Fitting time slices to execution phasesanon2018/08/22 06:52 PM
                                    Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 04:37 PM
                                    Is preventing misuse that complex?Paul A. Clayton2018/08/23 05:42 AM
                                      Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/23 12:46 PM
                                        Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 01:29 PM
                                          Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 01:33 PM
                                            Is preventing misuse that complex?Jeff S.2018/08/24 07:57 AM
                                              Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/24 08:47 AM
                                          Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/23 02:30 PM
                                            Is preventing misuse that complex?Travis2018/08/23 03:11 PM
                                              Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/24 01:00 PM
                                                Is preventing misuse that complex?Gabriele Svelto2018/08/24 01:25 PM
                                                  Is preventing misuse that complex?Linus Torvalds2018/08/24 01:33 PM
                                  Fitting time slices to execution phasesTravis2018/08/21 03:54 PM
                                rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 03:18 PM
                                  rseq: holy grail rwlock?Linus Torvalds2018/08/21 03:59 PM
                                    rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 04:27 PM
                                      rseq: holy grail rwlock?Linus Torvalds2018/08/21 05:10 PM
                                        rseq: holy grail rwlock?Travis2018/08/21 06:21 PM
                  ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/21 05:07 AM
                    ARM design housesWilco2018/08/22 12:38 PM
                      ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/22 02:21 PM
                        ARM design housesWilco2018/08/22 03:23 PM
                          ARM design housesMichael S2018/08/29 01:58 AM
                            Qualcomm's core naming scheme really, really sucksHeikki Kultala2018/08/29 02:19 AM
                A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:07 PM
                  A76Michael S2018/08/18 02:32 PM
                    A76Maynard Handley2018/08/18 02:52 PM
                      A76Michael S2018/08/18 03:04 PM
    ARM is somewhat misleadingjuanrga2018/08/17 01:20 AM
    Surprised??Alberto2018/08/17 01:52 AM
      Surprised??Alberto2018/08/17 02:10 AM
      Surprised??none2018/08/17 02:46 AM
      Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 07:30 AM
        Garbage talkMichael S2018/08/17 07:43 AM
          Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:51 AM
            Garbage talkMichael S2018/08/18 11:29 AM
        Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 08:28 AM
          Garbage talkAlberto2018/08/17 09:20 AM
          Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:48 AM
            Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 10:17 AM
              Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 10:36 AM
                Garbage talkAdrian2018/08/17 02:53 PM
                  Garbage talkAndrei Frumusanu2018/08/18 12:17 AM
        More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Alberto2018/08/17 09:13 AM
          More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Andrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 09:34 AM
            More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Alberto2018/08/17 10:03 AM
              More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Andrei Frumusanu2018/08/17 10:43 AM
              More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Doug S2018/08/17 02:17 PM
              15W phone SoCsAM2018/08/17 03:04 PM
          More like a religion he?? ARM has an easy life :)Maynard Handley2018/08/17 12:29 PM
  my future stuff will be better than your old stuff, hey I'm a god at last (NT)Eric Bron2018/08/18 03:34 AM
    my future stuff will be better than your old stuff, hey I'm a god at lastnone2018/08/18 08:34 AM
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