Some power efficiency figures

By: anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com), October 13, 2018 1:13 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 4:16 pm wrote:
> anon (spam.delete.delete@this.this.spam.com) on October 12, 2018 4:04 pm wrote:
> > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 3:37 pm wrote:
> > > Simon Farnsworth (simon.delete@this.farnz.org.uk) on October 12, 2018 11:51 am wrote:
> > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 10:33 am wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > - Finally (and CF are very careful how they say this, but I think the message is obvious,
> > > > > especially when you get to the comments) QC was, uh, not an optimal partner...
> > > > > Essentially QC and Falkor showed the DESIRABILITY of an ARM64 throughput server, but not one from ARM.
> > > >
> > > > Well, it showed the desirability of a high thread count throughput server with just
> > > > enough single threaded compute. ARM64 is a mirage here - as shown by them jumping
> > > > to a high thread count Intel chip once Intel was willing to offer them one.
> > > >
> > > > Equally, they'll happily move to ARM64, MIPS, PowerPC, or any other ISA to get the chips they want
> > > > - they've got no legacy hangups about staying with x86 if there's a good design out there.
> > >
> > > I'd agree with that phrasing.
> > > One could assert that, once these baseline metrics are
> > > met (performance parity in the ways CF demands) ARM64
> > > PROBABLY has (or can more easily be made to have) other properties that CF might care about, things like
> > > - better security (broadly defined, but could mean smaller attack surface, faster turnaround
> > > to fix known HW bugs, HW root of trust that works + associated non-vulnerable BMC, ...) OR
> >
> > Why would ARM64 have better security than MIPS, POWER, RISC-V,
> > SPARC or whatever CAPITALIZED ISA you can come up with?
> > Why would it have faster turnaround to fix known HW bugs?
> >
> > > - better memory capabilities in ways that CF wants but Intel won't offer for strategic reasons (like
> > > more memory controllers, or some sort of wide memory support, or non-Optane NVMe support).
> >
> > Again, why would ARM64 specifically make it any easier to
> > add more memory controllers? Also AMD already does that.
> > In the end you don't care if it was difficult or not, if a vendor offers what you want it doesn't matter.
>
> For security, ARM has the advantage of supposedly having thought of this stuff from the beginning (TrustZone/EL3,
> v8.3 PAC and v8.5 memory region signing).

Your examples contradict your claim (or at least do not support it). v8 was the beginning of ARM64, not v8.3 or v8.5.

> That's not dispositive; obviously other vendors CAN add it
> (and maybe MIPS has for their IoT stuff?) But ARM has it running already, they have proofs of concept
> (although they also have proofs that idiots can fsck up TrustZone if they don't really care what they
> are doing...). And don't discount the compiler work that needs to be done, which has been done already
> for ARMv8.3 and will presumably be done soon for ARMv8.5 (thanks Apple and Google!)
>
> For turnaround, that's just a question of dollars. I mean, sure,
> brave little MIPS is doing its best but come on, seriously?

Compared with Intel or AMD or IBM?

> If you're doing this in the ARM space ALL you have to worry about is making your chip work well (and
> match what the market actually wants...) If you're doing it in any other space, it is ALSO your job
> to figure out the future roadmap, to maintain the compiler and OS, to optimize new algorithms, to write
> the JIT, to track and fix the security bugs, to make sure the crypto libs are safe, etc, etc, etc.
> Everyone except x86 (and now ARM) has twice the workload, along with a vastly smaller budget.

What exactly are you talking about here? What is the "this"? What workload?
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    Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelnobody in particular2018/10/10 12:03 PM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/10 12:25 PM
        Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 01:07 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelhobold2018/10/10 01:14 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/10 01:58 PM
            Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 07:56 PM
              Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/11 01:18 AM
                Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelMichael S2018/10/11 02:43 AM
                Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/11 02:30 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelBeastian2018/10/10 04:33 PM
            Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelDoug S2018/10/11 01:38 AM
          Qualcomm restructured server chip unitjuanrga2018/10/11 02:04 AM
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              Qualcomm restructured server chip unitMichael S2018/10/11 06:48 AM
                Qualcomm restructured server chip unitnone2018/10/11 08:15 AM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 12:29 PM
  Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelDoug S2018/10/10 11:10 AM
    Cloudflare jumps to custom Inteldmcq2018/10/10 11:27 AM
    Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 02:07 PM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelMichael S2018/10/11 03:06 AM
        Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/11 06:02 AM
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            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?rwessel2018/10/12 12:01 AM
              TwinBladesPaul A. Clayton2018/10/12 04:52 AM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?Doug S2018/10/12 01:01 AM
              Why can't two "computers" be on one board?Etienne2018/10/12 02:04 AM
              [O.T.] bladesMichael S2018/10/12 02:17 AM
                [O.T.] bladesAdrian2018/10/12 04:17 AM
              Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 03:04 AM
                Why can't two "computers" be on one board?rwessel2018/10/12 07:29 AM
                  Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 07:55 AM
              1S vs 2SWes Felter2018/10/12 01:30 PM
                1S vs 2SDoug S2018/10/12 02:35 PM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 03:10 AM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?hobel2018/10/12 06:53 AM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon.12018/10/11 09:16 AM
  Weird numbersjuanrga2018/10/11 02:11 AM
    Weird numbersanon2018/10/11 06:08 AM
      Weird numbersjuanrga2018/10/11 10:34 AM
        Weird numbersanon2018/10/11 11:24 AM
  Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/11 08:15 AM
    Look at the figures, folksFoo_2018/10/11 09:22 AM
      Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/11 10:02 AM
        Look at the figures, folksanon2018/10/11 02:49 PM
          Look at the figures, folksSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 12:19 AM
            Some power efficiency figuresAM2018/10/12 03:59 AM
              Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 09:00 AM
                Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 09:33 AM
                  Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 10:51 AM
                    Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/12 12:55 PM
                    Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 02:37 PM
                      Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/12 03:04 PM
                        Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 03:16 PM
                          Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 01:13 AM
                          Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 04:06 AM
                      Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/13 03:52 AM
                        Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 04:17 AM
                Reread what you saidAM2018/10/14 08:14 AM
          Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/12 03:48 AM
            Important clue for several postersjuanrga2018/10/12 09:07 AM
              Important clue for several postersWilco2018/10/12 12:50 PM
                Thanks (NT)juanrga2018/10/13 03:17 AM
            Important clue for several postersWes Felter2018/10/12 01:42 PM
              Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/14 08:00 AM
                Cloudflare CPU has better perf/WDavid Kanter2018/10/15 07:39 AM
                  Cloudflare CPU has better perf/Wanon2018/10/15 08:10 AM
                    Cloudflare CPU has better perf/WDavid Kanter2018/10/15 10:09 AM
                      Cloudflare CPU has better perf/Wanon2018/10/15 11:52 AM
            Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/13 01:20 AM
              Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/14 07:58 AM
                Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/14 02:29 PM
                  Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/16 09:18 AM
                    Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/16 10:35 AM
                    Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/17 03:01 PM
    Look at the figures, folksDavid Kanter2018/10/13 05:08 AM
      Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/14 07:50 AM
        Look at the figures, folksDavid Kanter2018/10/14 08:25 PM
          Look at the figures, folksMichael S2018/10/15 01:16 AM
            What?!AM2018/10/16 09:12 AM
          ARM servers in AzureMichael S2018/10/15 01:19 AM
            ARM servers in Azurejuanrga2018/10/15 04:41 AM
              ARM servers in AzureMichael S2018/10/15 04:46 AM
              ARM servers in AzureAnon2018/10/15 04:54 AM
                ARM servers in Azureanon2018/10/15 06:40 AM
          Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/16 09:07 AM
        Look at the figures, folksMichael S2018/10/15 01:25 AM
        What figures?someone2018/10/15 04:35 AM
          What figures?AM2018/10/16 09:03 AM
            What figures?someone2018/10/17 07:19 AM
              What figures?wumpus2018/10/18 07:46 AM
      Look at the figures, folksJames2018/10/15 04:16 AM
        Look at the figures, folksAnne O. Nymous2018/10/15 04:31 AM
          Look at the figures, folksanonymou52018/10/15 04:47 AM
            Look at the figures, folksAnne O. Nymous2018/10/15 04:55 AM
        Watch the financial reportsAnon2018/10/15 05:00 AM
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