Some power efficiency figures

By: anon (spam.delete.delete@this.this.spam.com), October 13, 2018 4:06 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 4:16 pm wrote:
> anon (spam.delete.delete@this.this.spam.com) on October 12, 2018 4:04 pm wrote:
> > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 3:37 pm wrote:
> > > Simon Farnsworth (simon.delete@this.farnz.org.uk) on October 12, 2018 11:51 am wrote:
> > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on October 12, 2018 10:33 am wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > - Finally (and CF are very careful how they say this, but I think the message is obvious,
> > > > > especially when you get to the comments) QC was, uh, not an optimal partner...
> > > > > Essentially QC and Falkor showed the DESIRABILITY of an ARM64 throughput server, but not one from ARM.
> > > >
> > > > Well, it showed the desirability of a high thread count throughput server with just
> > > > enough single threaded compute. ARM64 is a mirage here - as shown by them jumping
> > > > to a high thread count Intel chip once Intel was willing to offer them one.
> > > >
> > > > Equally, they'll happily move to ARM64, MIPS, PowerPC, or any other ISA to get the chips they want
> > > > - they've got no legacy hangups about staying with x86 if there's a good design out there.
> > >
> > > I'd agree with that phrasing.
> > > One could assert that, once these baseline metrics are
> > > met (performance parity in the ways CF demands) ARM64
> > > PROBABLY has (or can more easily be made to have) other properties that CF might care about, things like
> > > - better security (broadly defined, but could mean smaller attack surface, faster turnaround
> > > to fix known HW bugs, HW root of trust that works + associated non-vulnerable BMC, ...) OR
> >
> > Why would ARM64 have better security than MIPS, POWER, RISC-V,
> > SPARC or whatever CAPITALIZED ISA you can come up with?
> > Why would it have faster turnaround to fix known HW bugs?
> >
> > > - better memory capabilities in ways that CF wants but Intel won't offer for strategic reasons (like
> > > more memory controllers, or some sort of wide memory support, or non-Optane NVMe support).
> >
> > Again, why would ARM64 specifically make it any easier to
> > add more memory controllers? Also AMD already does that.
> > In the end you don't care if it was difficult or not, if a vendor offers what you want it doesn't matter.
>
> For security, ARM has the advantage of supposedly having thought of this stuff from the beginning (TrustZone/EL3,
> v8.3 PAC and v8.5 memory region signing). That's not dispositive; obviously other vendors CAN add it
> (and maybe MIPS has for their IoT stuff?) But ARM has it running already, they have proofs of concept
> (although they also have proofs that idiots can fsck up TrustZone if they don't really care what they
> are doing...). And don't discount the compiler work that needs to be done, which has been done already
> for ARMv8.3 and will presumably be done soon for ARMv8.5 (thanks Apple and Google!)
>

None of this is dependent on ARM64.
You might want to take a look at what POWER and SPARC offer in that regard.

> For turnaround, that's just a question of dollars. I mean, sure,
> brave little MIPS is doing its best but come on, seriously?

So you're suggesting that if IBM or anyone else decides to enter the market of high core count throughput CPUs and throw billions at a new architecture they wouldn't have enough money left to fix HW bugs in a timely manner?

> If you're doing this in the ARM space ALL you have to worry about is making your chip work well (and
> match what the market actually wants...) If you're doing it in any other space, it is ALSO your job
> to figure out the future roadmap, to maintain the compiler and OS, to optimize new algorithms, to write
> the JIT, to track and fix the security bugs, to make sure the crypto libs are safe, etc, etc, etc.
> Everyone except x86 (and now ARM) has twice the workload, along with a vastly smaller budget.

I'm pretty sure that especially POWER and SPARC have to do that anyway. The software infrastructure isn't suddenly going to crumble just because someone builds a new CPU. The compilers exist and won't just disappear.
What's that argument about roadmaps? If someone else writes your compiler you don't need a roadmap? How does that even work?
The workload/budget argument is also nonsense. So some company decides they can afford a new CPU architecure for billions of dollars, but suddenly the compiler needed for that (which already exists), which is a completely different workload, done by completely different people, is going to bankrupt them? What?


Don't get me wrong, ARM64 is still the most likely candidate for servers, but for completely different reasons. MIPS is in limbo and not going to do anything themselves, Oracle has no desire to compete on an open market, Fujitsu might not be using SPARC for too much longer, IBM is more interested in the high performance per core sector where they're established and doesn't just hand out POWER licenses and RISC-V is years and billions of dollars away from competitive architectures. That doesn't leave a whole lot of candidates. None of this is due to any advantages or disadvantages of the ISAs.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelnobody in particular2018/10/10 07:55 AM
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  Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 08:39 AM
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    Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelnobody in particular2018/10/10 12:03 PM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/10 12:25 PM
        Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 01:07 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelhobold2018/10/10 01:14 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/10 01:58 PM
            Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 07:56 PM
              Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelWilco2018/10/11 01:18 AM
                Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelMichael S2018/10/11 02:43 AM
                Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/11 02:30 PM
          Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelBeastian2018/10/10 04:33 PM
            Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelDoug S2018/10/11 01:38 AM
          Qualcomm restructured server chip unitjuanrga2018/10/11 02:04 AM
            Qualcomm restructured server chip unitnone2018/10/11 03:38 AM
              Qualcomm restructured server chip unitMichael S2018/10/11 06:48 AM
                Qualcomm restructured server chip unitnone2018/10/11 08:15 AM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 12:29 PM
  Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelDoug S2018/10/10 11:10 AM
    Cloudflare jumps to custom Inteldmcq2018/10/10 11:27 AM
    Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/10 02:07 PM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom IntelMichael S2018/10/11 03:06 AM
        Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon2018/10/11 06:02 AM
          Why can't two "computers" be on one board?Paul A. Clayton2018/10/11 06:49 PM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?rwessel2018/10/12 12:01 AM
              TwinBladesPaul A. Clayton2018/10/12 04:52 AM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?Doug S2018/10/12 01:01 AM
              Why can't two "computers" be on one board?Etienne2018/10/12 02:04 AM
              [O.T.] bladesMichael S2018/10/12 02:17 AM
                [O.T.] bladesAdrian2018/10/12 04:17 AM
              Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 03:04 AM
                Why can't two "computers" be on one board?rwessel2018/10/12 07:29 AM
                  Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 07:55 AM
              1S vs 2SWes Felter2018/10/12 01:30 PM
                1S vs 2SDoug S2018/10/12 02:35 PM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?anon2018/10/12 03:10 AM
            Why can't two "computers" be on one board?hobel2018/10/12 06:53 AM
      Cloudflare jumps to custom Intelanon.12018/10/11 09:16 AM
  Weird numbersjuanrga2018/10/11 02:11 AM
    Weird numbersanon2018/10/11 06:08 AM
      Weird numbersjuanrga2018/10/11 10:34 AM
        Weird numbersanon2018/10/11 11:24 AM
  Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/11 08:15 AM
    Look at the figures, folksFoo_2018/10/11 09:22 AM
      Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/11 10:02 AM
        Look at the figures, folksanon2018/10/11 02:49 PM
          Look at the figures, folksSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 12:19 AM
            Some power efficiency figuresAM2018/10/12 03:59 AM
              Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 09:00 AM
                Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 09:33 AM
                  Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/12 10:51 AM
                    Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/12 12:55 PM
                    Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 02:37 PM
                      Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/12 03:04 PM
                        Some power efficiency figuresMaynard Handley2018/10/12 03:16 PM
                          Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 01:13 AM
                          Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 04:06 AM
                      Some power efficiency figuresSimon Farnsworth2018/10/13 03:52 AM
                        Some power efficiency figuresanon2018/10/13 04:17 AM
                Reread what you saidAM2018/10/14 08:14 AM
          Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/12 03:48 AM
            Important clue for several postersjuanrga2018/10/12 09:07 AM
              Important clue for several postersWilco2018/10/12 12:50 PM
                Thanks (NT)juanrga2018/10/13 03:17 AM
            Important clue for several postersWes Felter2018/10/12 01:42 PM
              Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/14 08:00 AM
                Cloudflare CPU has better perf/WDavid Kanter2018/10/15 07:39 AM
                  Cloudflare CPU has better perf/Wanon2018/10/15 08:10 AM
                    Cloudflare CPU has better perf/WDavid Kanter2018/10/15 10:09 AM
                      Cloudflare CPU has better perf/Wanon2018/10/15 11:52 AM
            Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/13 01:20 AM
              Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/14 07:58 AM
                Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/14 02:29 PM
                  Important clue for several postersAM2018/10/16 09:18 AM
                    Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/16 10:35 AM
                    Important clue for several postersanon2018/10/17 03:01 PM
    Look at the figures, folksDavid Kanter2018/10/13 05:08 AM
      Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/14 07:50 AM
        Look at the figures, folksDavid Kanter2018/10/14 08:25 PM
          Look at the figures, folksMichael S2018/10/15 01:16 AM
            What?!AM2018/10/16 09:12 AM
          ARM servers in AzureMichael S2018/10/15 01:19 AM
            ARM servers in Azurejuanrga2018/10/15 04:41 AM
              ARM servers in AzureMichael S2018/10/15 04:46 AM
              ARM servers in AzureAnon2018/10/15 04:54 AM
                ARM servers in Azureanon2018/10/15 06:40 AM
          Look at the figures, folksAM2018/10/16 09:07 AM
        Look at the figures, folksMichael S2018/10/15 01:25 AM
        What figures?someone2018/10/15 04:35 AM
          What figures?AM2018/10/16 09:03 AM
            What figures?someone2018/10/17 07:19 AM
              What figures?wumpus2018/10/18 07:46 AM
      Look at the figures, folksJames2018/10/15 04:16 AM
        Look at the figures, folksAnne O. Nymous2018/10/15 04:31 AM
          Look at the figures, folksanonymou52018/10/15 04:47 AM
            Look at the figures, folksAnne O. Nymous2018/10/15 04:55 AM
        Watch the financial reportsAnon2018/10/15 05:00 AM
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