RISC-V inferior to ARMv8

By: anon (spam.delete.delete.delete@this.this.this.spam.com), December 21, 2018 1:48 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Adrian (a.delete@this.acm.org) on December 20, 2018 8:51 pm wrote:
> Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on December 20, 2018 3:24 pm wrote:
> >
> > I agree with everything you said except pre-indexed/post-indexed addressing modes.
> > Those, IMHO, are misfeatures, esp. for integer load instructions.
> I do not understand why you believe that this are misfeatures.
> The auto-indexed addressing modes introduced by IBM 801 and copied by ARM, PA-RISC, POWER and others
> are the only way of coding any kind of loop without any extra instructions for address computations.

In your experience how many of the loops with a fixed increment/decrement do not have a counter that could be used for the adresses?
Also I'm not sure if works for absolutely any kind of loop, if you're not working with a fixed stride you're going to have a problem.

> The previous kinds of auto-indexed addressing modes allowed only a small set of increments
> or decrements, so they were suitable only for certain kinds of loops, not for any loop.

I think we'd be happy with adressing for most kinds of loops, since that is vastly better than current RISC-V, so being suitable for all loops shouldn't be a requirement.

> The only other addressing mode that can be chosen as an alternative for the IBM auto-indexed addressing,
> because it also allows the elimination of the extra instructions in many kinds of loops, including in the
> most frequent, but not in all loops, is the 3-component addressing mode (base, index & shift) introduced
> by VAX and also adopted by Intel 80386. However, the implementation of this addressing mode seems more difficult,
> because even many modern processors do not succeed to perform it at maximum speed in all cases.

Base + index works if you put the shift in the counter. More work for the compiler but basically standard these days.

> When neither IBM auto-indexed modes nor VAX 3-component addressing are available, there are
> many kinds of loops which cannot be coded with a minimal number of instructions because address
> computation instructions must be added besides the data handling instructions.

Isn't index + shift usually counted as one component so it's only a 3-componend adressing mode with displacement on top of it?
Either way base + index register even without the shift would help a lot.

> The RISC-V fans argue that the extra instructions do not matter, because a fast implementation will fuse
> the address computation instructions with the data handling instructions, achieving the same throughput.
> I do not agree, because I believe that it is stupid to code the address computation with an extra instruction
> word, when the same thing can be encoded with a couple of bits in an addressing mode field and the instruction
> decoder is also certainly simpler than the one that must fuse those instruction pairs.

Yeah you're also throwing away fetch bandwidth.
RISC-V seems full of decisions based on "oh but that means the compiler would have to make a decision, let's just solve that in hardware" and then they do absolutely nothing about it in hardware.

I mean both pre- and post-increment/decrement is a bit much and I can see why they wouldn't want instructions that write to two registers or have 3 or even 4 inputs (base, index, shift and displacement) but surely two simple 2 in 1 out load instructions with base + index register and base + displacement/immediate wouldn't have killed them. You really have to be a fanatical purist if you believe that the AGU shouldn't be allowed to do any calculations.
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TopicPosted ByDate
RISC-V Summit ProceedingsGabriele Svelto2018/12/19 08:36 AM
  RISC-V gut feelingsKonrad Schwarz2018/12/20 04:30 AM
    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Heikki Kultala2018/12/20 07:36 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/20 01:31 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/20 02:18 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:43 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Ronald Maas2018/12/21 09:35 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:28 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 02:39 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 03:38 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 04:39 AM
                  With similar logic nor do frequency (NT)Megol2018/12/23 09:45 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 04:44 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/23 06:21 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/20 03:24 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/20 04:22 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:16 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/22 03:53 AM
              Execution runtimes and SpectreFoo_2018/12/22 06:02 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 08:51 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/20 11:10 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 11:38 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 02:31 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 03:23 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8random person2018/12/21 02:04 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 04:27 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:36 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/21 12:02 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:23 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 11:21 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 01:48 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 03:44 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 05:24 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 04:09 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 04:28 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 02:27 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Gabriele Svelto2018/12/21 01:09 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 02:58 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:43 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 05:45 PM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 04:37 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 06:54 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 10:32 AM
                Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 02:09 AM
                  Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 04:32 AM
                    Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 07:07 AM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 07:38 AM
                        Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 07:47 AM
                          Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 10:24 AM
                            Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/25 03:41 PM
                              Cracking is not freeanon.12018/12/25 08:14 PM
                        multi-instruction decode and renamePaul A. Clayton2018/12/22 06:45 PM
                    Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 12:30 PM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/23 06:48 AM
                      Cracking is not freeMichael S2018/12/23 08:09 AM
                        Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/26 02:53 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8rwessel2018/12/21 01:13 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Seni2018/12/21 02:33 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:33 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 05:49 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 04:58 AM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:03 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 07:22 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:40 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 03:57 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Konrad Schwarz2018/12/21 02:25 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8j2018/12/21 10:46 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:08 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 07:45 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:50 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/22 08:15 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 10:41 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8AnonQ2018/12/22 08:13 AM
    RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/20 07:41 AM
      RISC-V initial takeKonrad Schwarz2018/12/21 02:17 AM
        RISC-V initial takedmcq2018/12/21 03:23 AM
      RISC-V gut feelingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 02:56 PM
        RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/23 04:38 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsjuanrga2018/12/21 10:47 AM
    RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/22 06:21 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 02:03 PM
        RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/23 04:39 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsanon22018/12/21 10:57 AM
    RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMichael S2018/12/22 08:36 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsAnon2018/12/22 05:51 PM
      Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSPaul A. Clayton2018/12/23 03:05 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSMichael S2018/12/23 03:49 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSdmcq2018/12/23 04:52 AM
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