RISC-V inferior to ARMv8

By: dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk), December 21, 2018 4:27 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
random person (random.delete@this.person.com) on December 21, 2018 2:04 am wrote:
> Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on December 20, 2018 11:10 pm wrote:
> > Adrian (a.delete@this.acm.org) on December 20, 2018 8:51 pm wrote:
> > > The RISC-V fans argue that the extra instructions do not matter, because a fast implementation will fuse
> > > the address computation instructions with the data handling instructions, achieving the same throughput.
> > >
> > >
> > > I do not agree, because I believe that it is stupid to code
> > > the address computation with an extra instruction
> > > word, when the same thing can be encoded with a couple of
> > > bits in an addressing mode field and the instruction
> > > decoder is also certainly simpler than the one that must fuse those instruction pairs.
> >
> >
> > Aren't these differences due to the fact ARMv8 has evolved from previous ARM ISAs over a
> > few decades of real world use that showed where the weak points were, whereas RISC-V is
> > mostly from an academic ivory tower purist background with very little real world usage?
> > Sometimes you find you must compromise your purist principles to produce a better result,
> > which is why ARMv8 adopted some features that aren't considered traditionally RISC.
>
> I think this is oversimplifying things - you don't have to have built an ARMv7 chip to have learned from some
> of ARMv7's mistakes. Or x86's. You seem to be oddly dismissive of academics, but they articulate why they
> made the choices that they did. Clearly, one of their primary goals was to create an ISA that is as simple
> as possible to decode, with some obvious sacrifices to code density. Having such a small and easy to decode
> ISA allows them to push to even smaller design points than might be possible for some other ISAs.
>
> > The arguments made by the RISC-V fans sound a lot like arguments made by Itanium fans
> > where the compiler would pick up the slack for the shortcomings, and the raw speed would
> > enable it to beat all comers. But RISC-V fans aren't even claiming this will result in
> > superior performance, only that it will be the same. If so, what's the point?
> >
> > They are trading complexity in instruction decode for dynamic execution complexity. I think the
> > performance that x86 is able to attain has shown us that instruction decode complexity matters
> > little if at all given modern transistor budgets. Getting wider to issue and execute those index
> > calculations as separate instructions in parallel, on the other hand, requires very careful design
> > to insure all paths have enough resources without escalating power draw too much.
>
> Let's not get carried away here - x86 processors are attaining performance by fighting against/working
> around ugliness of the ISA here. Those uop caches take a lot of transistors, and will have to continue
> to grow over time and then they still have to put down a lot of logic for the regular decode path,
> so they sure are spending a lot on this for it to supposedly 'matter little if at all'. Wide issue
> helps little if you can only sustain a couple of uops per cycle from the front end.
>
> The loss of some code density does hurt though, so there is definitely room for a more middle-ground
> approach. RISC-V C extension presents either 2B or 4B instructions, which is certainly a lot better
> to deal with than the 'anywhere between 1 and 15 bytes' of x86. However, there's something to be
> said for the simplicity of pure fixed-length ISAs, as it simplifies quite a bit in the fetch, decode,
> branch prediction. Notice that even Samsung's ARMv8 core can hit 48B fetch per cycle, where Skylake
> can get to at most 16B. Is x86 able to achieve 3x the code density to make up for it?

The density of x86 code is about the same or even worse than ARMv8. A modern CISC should do much better but x86 is not a modern CISC! The variable length ISA for RISC-V is more compact, rather similar to Thumb2. ARMv8 is normally the best by number of instructions executed except for x86 string operations or the 256 or 512 bit wide SIMD.
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TopicPosted ByDate
RISC-V Summit ProceedingsGabriele Svelto2018/12/19 08:36 AM
  RISC-V gut feelingsKonrad Schwarz2018/12/20 04:30 AM
    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Heikki Kultala2018/12/20 07:36 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/20 01:31 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/20 02:18 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:43 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Ronald Maas2018/12/21 09:35 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:28 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 02:39 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 03:38 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 04:39 AM
                  With similar logic nor do frequency (NT)Megol2018/12/23 09:45 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 04:44 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/23 06:21 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/20 03:24 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/20 04:22 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:16 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/22 03:53 AM
              Execution runtimes and SpectreFoo_2018/12/22 06:02 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 08:51 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/20 11:10 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 11:38 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 02:31 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 03:23 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8random person2018/12/21 02:04 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 04:27 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:36 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/21 12:02 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 10:23 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 11:21 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 01:48 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 03:44 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 05:24 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 04:09 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 04:28 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 02:27 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Gabriele Svelto2018/12/21 01:09 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 02:58 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:43 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 05:45 PM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 04:37 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 06:54 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 10:32 AM
                Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 02:09 AM
                  Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 04:32 AM
                    Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 07:07 AM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 07:38 AM
                        Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 07:47 AM
                          Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 10:24 AM
                            Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/25 03:41 PM
                              Cracking is not freeanon.12018/12/25 08:14 PM
                        multi-instruction decode and renamePaul A. Clayton2018/12/22 06:45 PM
                    Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 12:30 PM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/23 06:48 AM
                      Cracking is not freeMichael S2018/12/23 08:09 AM
                        Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/26 02:53 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8rwessel2018/12/21 01:13 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Seni2018/12/21 02:33 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 03:33 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 05:49 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 04:58 AM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:03 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 07:22 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:40 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 03:57 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Konrad Schwarz2018/12/21 02:25 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8j2018/12/21 10:46 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:08 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 07:45 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:50 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/22 08:15 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 10:41 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8AnonQ2018/12/22 08:13 AM
    RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/20 07:41 AM
      RISC-V initial takeKonrad Schwarz2018/12/21 02:17 AM
        RISC-V initial takedmcq2018/12/21 03:23 AM
      RISC-V gut feelingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 02:56 PM
        RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/23 04:38 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsjuanrga2018/12/21 10:47 AM
    RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/22 06:21 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 02:03 PM
        RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/23 04:39 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsanon22018/12/21 10:57 AM
    RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMichael S2018/12/22 08:36 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsAnon2018/12/22 05:51 PM
      Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSPaul A. Clayton2018/12/23 03:05 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSMichael S2018/12/23 03:49 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSdmcq2018/12/23 04:52 AM
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