RISC-V inferior to ARMv8

By: dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk), December 22, 2018 8:45 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Travis Downs (travis.downs.delete@this.gmail.com) on December 21, 2018 6:08 pm wrote:
> j (j.delete@this.invalid.example.com) on December 21, 2018 10:46 am wrote:
>
> > That seems to be the argument of the RISC-V designers, yes. I guess one problem with cmov
> > is when to use it? A competent ASM programmer doing careful profiling of the code, sure, but
> > a compiler without profile information - most likely a traditional branch is better here.
> > So the question then is cmov (not to mention other predicated instructions) useful enough
> > that it's worth spending opcode space on - RISC-V designers evidently thought it wasn't.
>
> Yes, branches are good but cmov is also "cheap" on modern CPUs, comparable in "raw cost" to a branch.
> The main costs of cmov is introducing a data dependency between both inputs and the output, which doesn't
> happen when you use in a branch. In principle a compiler is well placed to evaluate whether the potential
> cmov is part of an "important" dependency chain, but in practice they don't seem to.
>
> Instead, it seems they largely use heuristics to estimate the probability of a branch being
> taken, and for "uncertain" branches they will prefer a cmov. Of course, the heuristics can
> be way off in both directions. If you use PGO, the heuristics are then replaced by actual measurements,
> which will be better to the extend that your PGO workload reflects reality.
>
> I'm not aware of any attribute or other mechanism to mark a branch "unpredictable" (analogously
> to how you can mark them likely or unlikely), but it would be useful in some scenarios.
>
> Even with the limitations, I think cmov is a useful tool in a compiler's tool belt. Branch
> predictors are good, but many important branches will never be well predicted, since the
> underlying source is often unpredictable. Branches used in the inner loops of many compression
> and decompression algorithms are a good example: they are unpredictable by design.

Have Arm said cmov must be implemented as including a dependency for the value that is not used? Would it be broken if it were implemented as if it were cracked into a conditional branch and moves? If there is no register dependency on the value that is not used then it can be implemented as either one instruction or cracked into an if then else depending on whether the condition was easily predictable or not. The reliability of a prediction can be got with the usual predictors and it is useful in saying when to give up rather than wasting resources going down a rabbit hole.
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TopicPosted ByDate
RISC-V Summit ProceedingsGabriele Svelto2018/12/19 09:36 AM
  RISC-V gut feelingsKonrad Schwarz2018/12/20 05:30 AM
    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Heikki Kultala2018/12/20 08:36 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/20 02:31 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/20 03:18 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 04:43 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Ronald Maas2018/12/21 10:35 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 11:28 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 03:39 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 04:38 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 05:39 AM
                  With similar logic nor do frequency (NT)Megol2018/12/23 10:45 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/23 05:44 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/23 07:21 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/20 04:24 PM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/20 05:22 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 07:16 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/22 04:53 AM
              Execution runtimes and SpectreFoo_2018/12/22 07:02 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/20 09:51 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/21 12:10 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 12:38 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 03:31 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 04:23 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8random person2018/12/21 03:04 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 05:27 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 11:36 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Doug S2018/12/21 01:02 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8juanrga2018/12/21 11:23 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 12:21 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 02:48 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 04:44 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8anon2018/12/21 06:24 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Adrian2018/12/21 05:09 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 05:28 AM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/21 03:27 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Gabriele Svelto2018/12/21 02:09 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Maynard Handley2018/12/21 03:58 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 04:43 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:45 PM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 05:37 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 07:54 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 11:32 AM
                Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 03:09 AM
                  Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 05:32 AM
                    Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 08:07 AM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 08:38 AM
                        Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/22 08:47 AM
                          Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/22 11:24 AM
                            Cracking is not freeTravis Downs2018/12/25 04:41 PM
                              Cracking is not freeanon.12018/12/25 09:14 PM
                        multi-instruction decode and renamePaul A. Clayton2018/12/22 07:45 PM
                    Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/22 01:30 PM
                      Cracking is not freeWilco2018/12/23 07:48 AM
                      Cracking is not freeMichael S2018/12/23 09:09 AM
                        Cracking is not freeGabriele Svelto2018/12/26 03:53 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8rwessel2018/12/21 02:13 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Seni2018/12/21 03:33 PM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/21 04:33 PM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 06:49 PM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 05:58 AM
                  RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 08:03 AM
                    RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Wilco2018/12/22 08:22 AM
                      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 08:40 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/21 04:57 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Konrad Schwarz2018/12/21 03:25 AM
      RISC-V inferior to ARMv8j2018/12/21 11:46 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/21 07:08 PM
          RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 08:45 AM
            RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Travis Downs2018/12/22 08:50 AM
              RISC-V inferior to ARMv8Michael S2018/12/22 09:15 AM
                RISC-V inferior to ARMv8dmcq2018/12/22 11:41 AM
        RISC-V inferior to ARMv8AnonQ2018/12/22 09:13 AM
    RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/20 08:41 AM
      RISC-V initial takeKonrad Schwarz2018/12/21 03:17 AM
        RISC-V initial takedmcq2018/12/21 04:23 AM
      RISC-V gut feelingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 03:56 PM
        RISC-V gut feelingsdmcq2018/12/23 05:38 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsjuanrga2018/12/21 11:47 AM
    RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/22 07:21 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMontaray Jack2018/12/22 03:03 PM
        RISC-V Summit Proceedingsdmcq2018/12/23 05:39 AM
  RISC-V Summit Proceedingsanon22018/12/21 11:57 AM
    RISC-V Summit ProceedingsMichael S2018/12/22 09:36 AM
      RISC-V Summit ProceedingsAnon2018/12/22 06:51 PM
      Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSPaul A. Clayton2018/12/23 04:05 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSMichael S2018/12/23 04:49 AM
        Not Stanford MIPS but commercial MIPSdmcq2018/12/23 05:52 AM
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