ARM announces Ares

By: dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk), February 20, 2019 4:09 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Wilco (Wilco.dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on February 20, 2019 2:49 pm wrote:
> dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on February 20, 2019 2:16 pm wrote:
> > Wilco (Wilco.dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com) on February 20, 2019 1:31 pm wrote:
> > > dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on February 20, 2019 1:01 pm wrote:
> > > > Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on February 20, 2019 12:21 pm wrote:
> > > > > dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on February 20, 2019 11:49 am wrote:
> > > > > > Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on February 20, 2019 9:41 am wrote:
> > > > > > > dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on February 20, 2019 9:03 am wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And their ARMv8,1-M architecture
> > > > > > > > for Cortex-M microcontrollers totally abandons any pretence of a RISC architecture!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WTF are you talking about?!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The stuff in this from The Register
> > > > > > The Lance Arm-strong of performance-enhanced CPUs: Armv8.1-M
> > > > > > arch jams vector math into super-microcontrollers

> > > > > > No fuck is necessary in asking a question like that.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is necessary because, unlike you, I actually read introduction whitepaper
> > > > > and took a brief look into draft of 8.1M reference manual. There is absolutely
> > > > > nothing less RISCy than what was here since introduction of Thumb2.
> > > > > It's still load-store and still only 2 variants of instruction width.
> > > > > Unless you consider scatter-gather unRISCy. But than even Alpha is unRISCy, because of Tarantula proposal.
> > > > > In ARM world scatter/gather is already in SVE which is optional, but standardized part of v8-A.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anything, new synchronization facilities in 8.1-A are less RISCy than anything found in Helium.
> > > >
> > > > You did not have enough evidence to assume I had not read
> > > > that material and you were wrong in your assumption.
> > > >
> > > > Well I think of RISC as something where one has a set of
> > > > registers and instructions and the instructions work
> > > > cleanly to do one thing without having a load of status registers
> > > > except perhaps some condition codes. ARM went
> > > > a bit beyond that originally with load and store multiple
> > > > instructions. And then Thumb had a conditional execution
> > > > instruction that affected the next few instruction plus of course two lengths of instructions.
> > > >
> > > > This goes beyond that with lots more status with vector
> > > > instruction beats and overlapping and more conditional
> > > > control instructions and instructions to delimit loops.
> > > > And it can interrupt anywhere and restart at any beat
> > > > within a vector instruction. I think that all qualifies as not being what people think of as RISC.
> > >
> > > RISC is about the ISA, ie. load/store architecture, many
> > > orthogonal registers, fast decode, simple addressing
> > > modes, and instructions which are mostly single cycle.
> > > This still ticks all those boxes. Having instructions
> > > that affect state (such as changing rounding modes, setting flags etc) does not equal CISC. You could think
> > > of the beats as a traditional vector processor, it enables
> > > overlapping computations without hardware interlocks.
> > > The DSP-style looping instructions enable zero-overhead loops using minimal hardware. So it's all aimed at
> > > making implementations simpler and faster. How could that possibly be interpreted as a CISC ISA?
> > >
> > > Wilco
> >
> > Even if this can have complex loads and stores, has registers are overlaid in different ways, the
> > decode must be a bit strange by now, the addressing is not simple in comparison to other machines,
>
> Adding a new extension always increases complexity, that's a given. It's all about minimizing that so
> the gain is worth the cost. Tell me which Arm addressing modes are not simple? Base + offset with optional
> write back or base + index * scale are not complex and standard across various RISC ISAs.
>
> > and the instructions are not single cycle, your criteria, you still say how could I possibly interpret
> > this as a CISC ISA?
>
> Which instructions are not single cycle? The white paper showed how instructions are pipelined so
> they do not need multiple cycles, and a dependent vector operation can start in the next cycle.
>
> Wilco

I am not saying the additions are badly designed. I think the design is good. What I was saying is they don't fit into my idea of RISC. It seems to me that your definition of RISC is anything that is well designed and implemented, for instance that if the design and implementation is such that instructions can be overlapped then it becomes RISC. That RISC is good and CISC is bad, there's no alternatives and if something is done well it is RISC.

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TopicPosted ByDate
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                            ARM announces AresCharles2019/02/21 02:16 AM
                              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 02:26 AM
                        ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 08:55 PM
                          ARM announces AresJS2019/02/21 12:59 AM
                            *has not hasn't (NT)JS2019/02/21 01:01 AM
                            ARM announces AresSalvatore De Dominicis2019/02/21 07:05 AM
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                          Definitions of RISCMichael S2019/02/21 10:16 AM
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                              Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 12:32 AM
                                Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)Michael S2019/02/22 04:28 AM
                                  Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 08:01 AM
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    stability? (NT)anonymous22019/02/20 10:01 AM
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    ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/20 10:11 AM
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  ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/20 10:36 AM
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      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 12:03 AM
        That last line should have been removed :-) (NT)none2019/02/21 12:04 AM
        ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 03:59 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 04:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:18 AM
              ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:43 AM
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      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:53 AM
        ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 09:03 AM
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            ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/21 02:40 PM
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            ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 04:27 PM
              ARM announces AresStoffels2019/02/22 12:21 AM
                ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/22 04:15 AM
                  ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:41 AM
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                    In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 (NT)Gabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:32 PM
                      In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86Simon Farnsworth2019/02/25 04:53 AM
              ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/22 02:52 AM
              ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:31 PM
                ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 03:57 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/25 04:21 AM
                    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 04:58 AM
                      ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/25 05:21 AM
                        ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/26 08:02 AM
                    ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:32 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 12:14 PM
                      ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:34 PM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/26 01:34 AM
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                Word salad bot strikes again (NT)nanon2019/02/25 12:26 AM
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                      ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/25 02:07 PM
                      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:38 AM
                    ARM announces AresJohn Yates2019/02/26 03:43 PM
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                ARMY announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/20 05:47 AM
                  ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 06:05 AM
          ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/21 10:23 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 10:29 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:44 PM
            ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 11:52 AM
            ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 08:19 PM
              ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 03:40 AM
          software ecosystemsRichardC2019/02/21 04:31 PM
            software ecosystemsFoo_2019/02/22 03:15 AM
          ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:31 PM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 08:23 AM
              + on hyperscalingMaynard Handley2019/02/22 08:38 AM
                + on hyperscalingjuanrga2019/02/22 11:57 AM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 08:23 AM
              sorry duplicatedmcq2019/02/22 08:26 AM
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            ARM announces AresBrett2019/02/21 10:20 PM
          ARM announces AresA. Wilcox2019/02/22 03:52 PM
  ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/20 03:30 PM
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            Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 02:21 PM
              Chicken or egg, both.David Soul2019/02/22 06:05 PM
                Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 09:55 PM
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                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/25 10:36 AM
                        why not?Michael S2019/02/25 10:43 AM
                          why not?dmcq2019/02/25 11:35 AM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/25 12:03 PM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/25 12:29 PM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/26 10:08 AM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/26 12:05 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:51 AM
                                    why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:15 PM
                                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:43 AM
                                why not?anon2019/02/26 11:22 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:59 AM
                                    why not?anon2019/02/27 06:42 AM
                                      why not?Magagop2019/02/27 03:31 PM
                                        why not?anon2019/02/27 05:02 PM
                                          why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:25 PM
                                            why not?anon2019/02/27 05:56 PM
                                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 06:19 PM
                                                why not?anon2019/02/27 06:46 PM
                                                  why not?Wilco2019/02/28 05:49 AM
                                                    why not?Jukka Larja2019/02/28 07:02 AM
                                                      why not?Michael S2019/02/28 08:32 AM
                                                      why not?Wilco2019/02/28 09:40 AM
                                                      why not?Doug S2019/02/28 10:13 AM
                                                        why not?Foo_2019/03/01 07:35 AM
                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/01 11:05 AM
                                                            why not?anon2019/03/01 02:32 PM
                                                              why not?dmcq2019/03/01 03:13 PM
                                                                why not?anon2019/03/01 04:13 PM
                                                                  why not?dmcq2019/03/02 03:56 AM
                                                                    why not?anon2019/03/02 10:09 AM
                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/02 10:41 AM
                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/02 12:19 PM
                                                                          why not?dmcq2019/03/03 03:48 AM
                                                                      why not?Doug S2019/03/02 04:53 PM
                                                                        why not?Michael S2019/03/02 05:06 PM
                                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/03 12:54 AM
                                                                            why not?Michael S2019/03/03 02:58 AM
                                                                              why not?anon2019/03/03 05:35 AM
                                                                                why not?dmcq2019/03/03 06:33 AM
                                                                                  I considired dry humor a Brittish specialty. It seems, I was wrong about it. (NT)Michael S2019/03/03 06:39 AM
                                                                                  why not?anon2019/03/03 10:13 AM
                                                                                    why not?Michael S2019/03/03 12:41 PM
                                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/03 01:21 PM
                                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/03 04:15 PM
                                                    why not?anon2019/02/28 08:38 PM
                                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:48 AM
                                                strawman (NT)anon2019/02/28 08:31 PM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/27 03:53 AM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 05:26 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 05:42 AM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:49 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 06:21 AM
                                  why not?dmcq2019/02/27 07:15 AM
                                Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 11:25 AM
                                  Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 12:45 PM
                                    Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 02:32 PM
                                      Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 04:04 PM
                                        Paul A. Clayton2019/02/27 07:06 PM
                                          Arm reference board?Simon Farnsworth2019/02/28 12:34 PM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:46 PM
                      why not? (NT)la mama de murgay2019/02/25 10:22 PM
                    Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/25 01:23 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 03:07 PM
              ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/03/02 05:40 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 08:08 AM
                  ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/03/02 10:10 AM
          ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 04:33 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 06:20 PM
              TrollDoug S2019/02/23 01:37 AM
                TrollDavid Soul2019/02/23 08:59 AM
              ARM announces AresEnnis2019/02/23 02:18 AM
                ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/23 02:38 AM
                  ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/23 03:46 AM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/23 05:41 AM
  ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/26 03:58 AM
    expensiveanonymous22019/02/27 12:46 AM
    ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:19 AM
      ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:21 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 07:57 AM
        ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/27 08:11 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 08:16 AM
            ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 12:49 PM
              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 01:43 PM
                ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 04:06 PM
                  ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:00 AM
                ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:02 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/03/01 03:47 AM
                    death by a thousand cutsMichael S2019/03/01 07:27 AM
                      death by a thousand cutsFoo_2019/03/01 07:37 AM
                        death by a thousand cutsdmcq2019/03/01 12:10 PM
              ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:31 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 09:17 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/28 03:02 PM
                    ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/03/01 01:19 AM
                ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:32 AM
                  ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:33 AM
                  ARM announces AresFoo_2019/03/01 01:55 AM
                  ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/03/01 05:40 AM
          ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 08:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:17 AM
              ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:21 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 04:03 PM
            ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:03 AM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/27 11:49 PM
        ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 04:26 AM
          ARM announces AresPeter E. Fry2019/02/28 07:31 PM
            ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/28 10:09 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 12:56 AM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/03/02 10:05 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 02:31 PM
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