ARM announces Ares

By: Groo (charlie.delete@this.semiaccurate.com), February 21, 2019 10:23 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on February 21, 2019 8:03 am wrote:
> Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com) on February 21, 2019 12:53 am wrote:
> >
> > Linus is the ultimate unixoid. I paid attention that even
> > less devoted unixoids are high on native development.
> > For me, as one that drinks and breaths cross-development all his professional
> > life, it sounds strange, but this mindset is not rare at all.
>
> I can pretty much guarantee that as long as everybody does
> cross-development, the platform won't be all that stable.
>
> Or successful.
>
> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction
> set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud.
>
> That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy
> on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home"
> I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment).
>
> Which means that you'll happily pay a bit more for x86 cloud hosting, simply because it matches
> what you can test on your own local setup, and the errors you get will translate better.
>
> This is true even if what you mostly do is something ostensibly cross-platform like just run perl
> scripts or whatever. Simply because you'll want to have as similar an environment as possible,
>
> Which in turn means that cloud providers will end up making more money from their x86 side, which
> means that they'll prioritize it, and any ARM offerings will be secondary and probably relegated
> to the mindless dregs (maybe front-end, maybe just static html, that kind of stuff).
>
> Guys, do you really not understand why x86 took over the server market?
>
> It wasn't just all price. It was literally this "develop at home" issue. Thousands of small
> companies ended up having random small internal workloads where it was easy to just get a random
> whitebox PC and run some silly small thing on it yourself. Then as the workload expanded, it
> became a "real server". And then once that thing expanded, suddenly it made a whole lot of sense
> to let somebody else manage the hardware and hosting, and the cloud took over.
>
> Do you really not understand? This isn't rocket science. This isn't some made up story.
> This is literally what happened, and what killed all the RISC vendors, and made x86 be
> the undisputed king of the hill of servers, to the point where everybody else is just
> a rounding error. Something that sounded entirely fictional a couple of decades ago.
>
> Without a development platform, ARM in the server space is never going to make it. Trying to sell a
> 64-bit "hyperscaling" model is idiotic, when you don't have customers and you don't have workloads
> because you never sold the small cheap box that got the whole market started in the first place.
>
> The price advantage of ARM will never be there for ARM servers unless you get enough volume to make
> up for the absolutely huge advantage in server volume that Intel has right now. Being a smaller die
> with cheaper NRE doesn't matter one whit, when you can't make up for the development costs in volume.
> Look at every ARM server offering so far: they were not only slower, they were more expensive!
>
> And the power advantage is still largely theoretical and doesn't show very much on
> a system level anyway, and is also entirely irrelevant if people end up willing to
> pay more for an x86 box simply because it's what they developed their load on.
>
> Which leaves absolutely no real advantage to ARM.
>
> This is basic economics.
>
> And the only way that changes is if you end up saying "look, you can deploy more cheaply
> on an ARM box, and here's the development box you can do your work on".
>
> Actual hardware for developers is hugely important. I seriously claim
> that this is why the PC took over, and why everything else died.
>
> So you can pooh-pooh it all you want, and say "just cross-build", but as long as you do that, you're going
> to be a tiny minority, and you don't see the big picture, and you're ignoring actual real history.
>
> And btw, calling this an "unixoid" mindset is just showing what a total disconnect to reality
> you have, and how stupid your argument is. Unix lost. Yes, it lives on in the shape of Linux,
> but Unix lost not just to Linux, but to Windows. In fact, arguably it lost to windows first.
>
> Why? Same exact reason, just on the software side. In both cases. Where did you find developers?
> You found them on Windows and on Linux, because that's what developers had access to. When those
> workloads grew up to be "real" workloads, they continued to be run on Windows and Linux, they weren't
> moved over to Unix platforms even if that would have been fairly easy in the Linux case. No, that
> was just unnecessary and pointless work. Just continue to deploy on the same platform.
>
> Exact same issue on the software side as with the hardware. Cross-development is pointless
> and stupid when the alternative is to just develop and deploy on the same platform. Yes,
> you can do it, but you generally would like to avoid it if at all possible.
>
> End result: cross-development is mainly done for platforms that are so weak as to make it
> pointless to develop on them. Nobody does native development in the embedded space. But whenever
> the target is powerful enough to support native development, there's a huge pressure to
> do it that way, because the cross-development model is so relatively painful.
>
> The corollary to the above is that yes, cross-development is also done when the target environment
> is too expensive to do native development on. That was the case for the big iron and traditional
> big Unix boxes. But that seriously erodes support for the expensive platform, and makes the cheap
> development platform much more able and likely to grow up into that space.
>
> It's why x86 won. Do you really think the world has changed radically?
>
Yes. Why? Because I have seen some of the orders.

On a related note, I agree with you on the past but I don't think it will play out the same this time for reasons far too complex to put into a post. Time will tell but I think the next 24 months will radically shift your views on this topic.

-Charlie

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                            ARM announces AresSalvatore De Dominicis2019/02/21 07:05 AM
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                          Definitions of RISCMichael S2019/02/21 10:16 AM
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                              Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 12:32 AM
                                Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)Michael S2019/02/22 04:28 AM
                                  Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 08:01 AM
  ARM announces Areslockederboss2019/02/20 09:56 AM
    stability? (NT)anonymous22019/02/20 10:01 AM
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    ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/20 10:11 AM
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  ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/20 10:36 AM
    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 10:54 AM
    ARM announces AresGeoff Langdale2019/02/20 03:07 PM
      ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 03:32 PM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 12:03 AM
        That last line should have been removed :-) (NT)none2019/02/21 12:04 AM
        ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 03:59 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 04:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:18 AM
              ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:43 AM
    ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 09:27 PM
      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:53 AM
        ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 09:03 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 09:35 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 09:51 AM
            ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/21 02:40 PM
            ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/02/21 03:56 PM
            ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 04:27 PM
              ARM announces AresStoffels2019/02/22 12:21 AM
                ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/22 04:15 AM
                  ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:41 AM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/22 10:30 AM
                    In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 (NT)Gabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:32 PM
                      In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86Simon Farnsworth2019/02/25 04:53 AM
              ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/22 02:52 AM
              ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:31 PM
                ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 03:57 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/25 04:21 AM
                    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 04:58 AM
                      ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/25 05:21 AM
                        ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/26 08:02 AM
                    ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:32 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 12:14 PM
                      ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:34 PM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/26 01:34 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 12:16 PM
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                Word salad bot strikes again (NT)nanon2019/02/25 12:26 AM
                ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 02:10 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 02:52 AM
                    ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 10:48 AM
                      ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/25 02:07 PM
                      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:38 AM
                    ARM announces AresJohn Yates2019/02/26 03:43 PM
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                ARMY announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/20 05:47 AM
                  ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 06:05 AM
          ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/21 10:23 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 10:29 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:44 PM
            ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 11:52 AM
            ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 08:19 PM
              ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 03:40 AM
          software ecosystemsRichardC2019/02/21 04:31 PM
            software ecosystemsFoo_2019/02/22 03:15 AM
          ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:31 PM
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              + on hyperscalingMaynard Handley2019/02/22 08:38 AM
                + on hyperscalingjuanrga2019/02/22 11:57 AM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 08:23 AM
              sorry duplicatedmcq2019/02/22 08:26 AM
          ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 08:34 PM
            ARM announces AresBrett2019/02/21 10:20 PM
          ARM announces AresA. Wilcox2019/02/22 03:52 PM
  ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/20 03:30 PM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 04:14 PM
      ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/21 08:40 AM
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          ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/22 12:23 PM
            Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 02:21 PM
              Chicken or egg, both.David Soul2019/02/22 06:05 PM
                Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 09:55 PM
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                    ARM salesaaron spink2019/02/23 08:47 AM
                Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/23 06:33 PM
                  Chicken or egg, both.Magagop2019/02/24 11:18 PM
                    why not? (NT)Michael S2019/02/25 02:03 AM
                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/25 10:36 AM
                        why not?Michael S2019/02/25 10:43 AM
                          why not?dmcq2019/02/25 11:35 AM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/25 12:03 PM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/25 12:29 PM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/26 10:08 AM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/26 12:05 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:51 AM
                                    why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:15 PM
                                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:43 AM
                                why not?anon2019/02/26 11:22 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:59 AM
                                    why not?anon2019/02/27 06:42 AM
                                      why not?Magagop2019/02/27 03:31 PM
                                        why not?anon2019/02/27 05:02 PM
                                          why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:25 PM
                                            why not?anon2019/02/27 05:56 PM
                                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 06:19 PM
                                                why not?anon2019/02/27 06:46 PM
                                                  why not?Wilco2019/02/28 05:49 AM
                                                    why not?Jukka Larja2019/02/28 07:02 AM
                                                      why not?Michael S2019/02/28 08:32 AM
                                                      why not?Wilco2019/02/28 09:40 AM
                                                      why not?Doug S2019/02/28 10:13 AM
                                                        why not?Foo_2019/03/01 07:35 AM
                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/01 11:05 AM
                                                            why not?anon2019/03/01 02:32 PM
                                                              why not?dmcq2019/03/01 03:13 PM
                                                                why not?anon2019/03/01 04:13 PM
                                                                  why not?dmcq2019/03/02 03:56 AM
                                                                    why not?anon2019/03/02 10:09 AM
                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/02 10:41 AM
                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/02 12:19 PM
                                                                          why not?dmcq2019/03/03 03:48 AM
                                                                      why not?Doug S2019/03/02 04:53 PM
                                                                        why not?Michael S2019/03/02 05:06 PM
                                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/03 12:54 AM
                                                                            why not?Michael S2019/03/03 02:58 AM
                                                                              why not?anon2019/03/03 05:35 AM
                                                                                why not?dmcq2019/03/03 06:33 AM
                                                                                  I considired dry humor a Brittish specialty. It seems, I was wrong about it. (NT)Michael S2019/03/03 06:39 AM
                                                                                  why not?anon2019/03/03 10:13 AM
                                                                                    why not?Michael S2019/03/03 12:41 PM
                                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/03 01:21 PM
                                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/03 04:15 PM
                                                    why not?anon2019/02/28 08:38 PM
                                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:48 AM
                                                strawman (NT)anon2019/02/28 08:31 PM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/27 03:53 AM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 05:26 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 05:42 AM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:49 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 06:21 AM
                                  why not?dmcq2019/02/27 07:15 AM
                                Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 11:25 AM
                                  Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 12:45 PM
                                    Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 02:32 PM
                                      Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 04:04 PM
                                        Paul A. Clayton2019/02/27 07:06 PM
                                          Arm reference board?Simon Farnsworth2019/02/28 12:34 PM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:46 PM
                      why not? (NT)la mama de murgay2019/02/25 10:22 PM
                    Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/25 01:23 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 03:07 PM
              ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/03/02 05:40 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 08:08 AM
                  ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/03/02 10:10 AM
          ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 04:33 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 06:20 PM
              TrollDoug S2019/02/23 01:37 AM
                TrollDavid Soul2019/02/23 08:59 AM
              ARM announces AresEnnis2019/02/23 02:18 AM
                ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/23 02:38 AM
                  ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/23 03:46 AM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/23 05:41 AM
  ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/26 03:58 AM
    expensiveanonymous22019/02/27 12:46 AM
    ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:19 AM
      ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:21 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 07:57 AM
        ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/27 08:11 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 08:16 AM
            ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 12:49 PM
              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 01:43 PM
                ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 04:06 PM
                  ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:00 AM
                ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:02 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/03/01 03:47 AM
                    death by a thousand cutsMichael S2019/03/01 07:27 AM
                      death by a thousand cutsFoo_2019/03/01 07:37 AM
                        death by a thousand cutsdmcq2019/03/01 12:10 PM
              ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:31 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 09:17 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/28 03:02 PM
                    ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/03/01 01:19 AM
                ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:32 AM
                  ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:33 AM
                  ARM announces AresFoo_2019/03/01 01:55 AM
                  ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/03/01 05:40 AM
          ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 08:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:17 AM
              ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:21 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 04:03 PM
            ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:03 AM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/27 11:49 PM
        ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 04:26 AM
          ARM announces AresPeter E. Fry2019/02/28 07:31 PM
            ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/28 10:09 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 12:56 AM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/03/02 10:05 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 02:31 PM
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