By: A. Wilcox (awilfox.delete@this.adelielinux.org), February 22, 2019 3:52 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on February 21, 2019 8:03 am wrote:
> I can pretty much guarantee that as long as everybody does
> cross-development, the platform won't be all that stable.
>
> Or successful.
>
> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction
> set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud.
>
> That's bullshit.
This is a huge thing that I wish more people understood.
There's this mobile project, postmarketOS, that spent a significant
amount of time doing cross-compilation only. Building an entire phone
environment from the "comfort" of x86_64. (I consider x86_64 a horror,
but I know I'm in the minority.) Of course every phone ever made* is an
ARM handset. The amount of brokenness in those packages, some just from
autotools making bad assumptions, was astounding. Luckily they got
their act together and managed to cobble together an arm64 package
builder, and now they have far less breakage.
Personally, I won't even consider or touch a port to a platform that I
can't physically touch. That's why alpha, m68k, ia64, hppa may as well
not exist to us. I hate doing that, especially when I have seen people
begging us for m68k support, but until one of us has an m68k computer on
desk, that is never going to happen.
Qemu doesn't count, considering all the TCG bugs I've found, one of them
even indirectly leading to a Linux kernel CVE...
--arw
* hyperbole. I know of all the other different CPUs that some handsets
were made from, even MIPS and x86, but ARM won.
> I can pretty much guarantee that as long as everybody does
> cross-development, the platform won't be all that stable.
>
> Or successful.
>
> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction
> set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud.
>
> That's bullshit.
This is a huge thing that I wish more people understood.
There's this mobile project, postmarketOS, that spent a significant
amount of time doing cross-compilation only. Building an entire phone
environment from the "comfort" of x86_64. (I consider x86_64 a horror,
but I know I'm in the minority.) Of course every phone ever made* is an
ARM handset. The amount of brokenness in those packages, some just from
autotools making bad assumptions, was astounding. Luckily they got
their act together and managed to cobble together an arm64 package
builder, and now they have far less breakage.
Personally, I won't even consider or touch a port to a platform that I
can't physically touch. That's why alpha, m68k, ia64, hppa may as well
not exist to us. I hate doing that, especially when I have seen people
begging us for m68k support, but until one of us has an m68k computer on
desk, that is never going to happen.
Qemu doesn't count, considering all the TCG bugs I've found, one of them
even indirectly leading to a Linux kernel CVE...
--arw
* hyperbole. I know of all the other different CPUs that some handsets
were made from, even MIPS and x86, but ARM won.
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
ARM announces Ares | nobody in particular | 2019/02/20 08:35 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Adrian | 2019/02/20 08:39 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 10:03 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/20 10:41 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 12:49 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/20 01:21 PM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 02:01 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Wilco | 2019/02/20 02:31 PM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 03:16 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Wilco | 2019/02/20 03:49 PM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 04:09 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Wilco | 2019/02/20 04:45 PM |
ARM announces Ares | nobody in particular | 2019/02/20 04:55 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Dan Fay | 2019/02/20 05:44 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Wilco | 2019/02/20 07:06 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Dan Fay | 2019/02/21 08:27 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 05:49 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Wilco | 2019/02/20 06:40 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Charles | 2019/02/21 02:16 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 02:26 AM |
ARM announces Ares | anon | 2019/02/20 08:55 PM |
ARM announces Ares | JS | 2019/02/21 12:59 AM |
*has not hasn't (NT) | JS | 2019/02/21 01:01 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Salvatore De Dominicis | 2019/02/21 07:05 AM |
Definitions of RISC | Brendan | 2019/02/21 10:07 AM |
Definitions of RISC | Michael S | 2019/02/21 10:16 AM |
PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISC | Mark Roulo | 2019/02/21 02:10 PM |
PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISC | rwessel | 2019/02/21 07:13 PM |
Definitions of RISC | Adrian | 2019/02/21 02:42 PM |
Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch) | wumpus | 2019/02/21 06:29 PM |
Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch) | none | 2019/02/22 12:32 AM |
Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch) | Michael S | 2019/02/22 04:28 AM |
Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch) | none | 2019/02/22 08:01 AM |
ARM announces Ares | lockederboss | 2019/02/20 09:56 AM |
stability? (NT) | anonymous2 | 2019/02/20 10:01 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 10:05 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Groo | 2019/02/20 10:11 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Andrei Frumusanu | 2019/02/20 11:49 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Linus Torvalds | 2019/02/20 10:36 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/20 10:54 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Geoff Langdale | 2019/02/20 03:07 PM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 03:32 PM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/21 12:03 AM |
That last line should have been removed :-) (NT) | none | 2019/02/21 12:04 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 01:47 AM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/21 03:59 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 04:45 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/21 05:18 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Simon Farnsworth | 2019/02/22 09:43 AM |
ARM announces Ares | anon | 2019/02/20 09:27 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 01:53 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Linus Torvalds | 2019/02/21 09:03 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 09:35 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 09:51 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Foo_ | 2019/02/21 02:40 PM |
ARM announces Ares | aaron spink | 2019/02/21 03:56 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Linus Torvalds | 2019/02/21 04:27 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Stoffels | 2019/02/22 12:21 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/22 04:15 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Simon Farnsworth | 2019/02/22 09:41 AM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/22 10:30 AM |
In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 (NT) | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/24 01:32 PM |
In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 | Simon Farnsworth | 2019/02/25 04:53 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Foo_ | 2019/02/22 02:52 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/24 01:31 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/25 03:57 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/25 04:21 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/25 04:58 AM |
ARM announces Ares | nobody in particular | 2019/02/25 05:21 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Adrian | 2019/02/26 08:02 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/26 12:32 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/26 12:14 PM |
ARM announces Ares | David Hess | 2019/03/19 05:34 PM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/26 01:34 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/26 12:16 PM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/27 12:19 AM |
ARM announces Ares | end of an era | 2019/02/24 03:18 PM |
Word salad bot strikes again (NT) | nanon | 2019/02/25 12:26 AM |
ARM announces Ares | hobel | 2019/02/25 02:10 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/25 02:52 AM |
ARM announces Ares | hobel | 2019/02/25 10:48 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Andrew Clough | 2019/02/25 02:07 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/26 12:38 AM |
ARM announces Ares | John Yates | 2019/02/26 03:43 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/27 06:55 AM |
ARM announces Ares | David Hess | 2019/03/19 05:22 PM |
ARM announces Ares | David Hess | 2019/03/19 04:54 PM |
ARMY announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/03/20 03:12 AM |
ARMY announces Ares | David Hess | 2019/03/20 05:47 AM |
ARMY announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/03/20 06:05 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Groo | 2019/02/21 10:23 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 10:29 AM |
ARM announces Ares | David Hess | 2019/03/19 05:44 PM |
ARM announces Ares | juanrga | 2019/02/21 11:52 AM |
ARM announces Ares | anon | 2019/02/21 08:19 PM |
ARM announces Ares | hobel | 2019/02/22 03:40 AM |
software ecosystems | RichardC | 2019/02/21 04:31 PM |
software ecosystems | Foo_ | 2019/02/22 03:15 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/21 05:31 PM |
+ on hyperscaling | dmcq | 2019/02/22 08:23 AM |
+ on hyperscaling | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/22 08:38 AM |
+ on hyperscaling | juanrga | 2019/02/22 11:57 AM |
+ on hyperscaling | dmcq | 2019/02/22 08:23 AM |
sorry duplicate | dmcq | 2019/02/22 08:26 AM |
ARM announces Ares | anon | 2019/02/21 08:34 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Brett | 2019/02/21 10:20 PM |
ARM announces Ares | A. Wilcox | 2019/02/22 03:52 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Doug S | 2019/02/20 03:30 PM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/20 04:14 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Doug S | 2019/02/21 08:40 AM |
ARM announces Ares | aaron spink | 2019/02/21 04:05 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/22 08:48 AM |
ARM announces Ares | juanrga | 2019/02/21 02:28 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/21 03:25 AM |
ARM announces Ares | juanrga | 2019/02/22 04:09 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Maynard Handley | 2019/02/22 08:51 AM |
ARM announces Ares | David Soul | 2019/02/22 11:47 AM |
ARM announces Ares | juanrga | 2019/02/22 12:23 PM |
Chicken or egg, both. | Brett | 2019/02/22 02:21 PM |
Chicken or egg, both. | David Soul | 2019/02/22 06:05 PM |
Chicken or egg, both. | Brett | 2019/02/22 09:55 PM |
ARM sales | juanrga | 2019/02/23 03:55 AM |
ARM sales | aaron spink | 2019/02/23 08:47 AM |
Chicken or egg, both. | Ronald Maas | 2019/02/23 06:33 PM |
Chicken or egg, both. | Magagop | 2019/02/24 11:18 PM |
why not? (NT) | Michael S | 2019/02/25 02:03 AM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/25 10:36 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/25 10:43 AM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/25 11:35 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/25 12:03 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/25 12:29 PM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/26 10:08 AM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/02/26 12:05 PM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/27 04:51 AM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/02/27 12:15 PM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/28 01:43 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/26 11:22 PM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/27 04:59 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/27 06:42 AM |
why not? | Magagop | 2019/02/27 03:31 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/27 05:02 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/27 05:25 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/27 05:56 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/27 06:19 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/27 06:46 PM |
why not? | Wilco | 2019/02/28 05:49 AM |
why not? | Jukka Larja | 2019/02/28 07:02 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/28 08:32 AM |
why not? | Wilco | 2019/02/28 09:40 AM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/02/28 10:13 AM |
why not? | Foo_ | 2019/03/01 07:35 AM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/03/01 11:05 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/01 02:32 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/01 03:13 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/01 04:13 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/02 03:56 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/02 10:09 AM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/02 10:41 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/02 12:19 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/03 03:48 AM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/03/02 04:53 PM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/03/02 05:06 PM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/03/03 12:54 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/03/03 02:58 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/03 05:35 AM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/03 06:33 AM |
I considired dry humor a Brittish specialty. It seems, I was wrong about it. (NT) | Michael S | 2019/03/03 06:39 AM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/03 10:13 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/03/03 12:41 PM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/03/03 01:21 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/03/03 04:15 PM |
why not? | anon | 2019/02/28 08:38 PM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/28 01:48 AM |
strawman (NT) | anon | 2019/02/28 08:31 PM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/27 03:53 AM |
why not? | Not the parent | 2019/02/27 05:26 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/27 05:42 AM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/27 05:49 AM |
why not? | Michael S | 2019/02/27 06:21 AM |
why not? | dmcq | 2019/02/27 07:15 AM |
Selling at multiple layers | Paul A. Clayton | 2019/02/27 11:25 AM |
Selling at multiple layers | Doug S | 2019/02/27 12:45 PM |
Selling at multiple layers | Paul A. Clayton | 2019/02/27 02:32 PM |
Selling at multiple layers | Doug S | 2019/02/27 04:04 PM |
Paul A. Clayton | 2019/02/27 07:06 PM | |
Arm reference board? | Simon Farnsworth | 2019/02/28 12:34 PM |
why not? | Doug S | 2019/02/27 12:46 PM |
why not? (NT) | la mama de murgay | 2019/02/25 10:22 PM |
Chicken or egg, both. | Ronald Maas | 2019/02/25 01:23 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/24 03:07 PM |
ARM announces Ares | juanrga | 2019/03/02 05:40 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/03/02 08:08 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/03/02 10:10 AM |
ARM announces Ares | hobel | 2019/02/22 04:33 PM |
ARM announces Ares | David Soul | 2019/02/22 06:20 PM |
Troll | Doug S | 2019/02/23 01:37 AM |
Troll | David Soul | 2019/02/23 08:59 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Ennis | 2019/02/23 02:18 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Foo_ | 2019/02/23 02:38 AM |
ARM announces Ares | anon | 2019/02/23 03:46 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/23 05:41 AM |
ARM announces Ares | nobody in particular | 2019/02/26 03:58 AM |
expensive | anonymous2 | 2019/02/27 12:46 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/27 07:19 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/27 07:21 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/27 07:57 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Jukka Larja | 2019/02/27 08:11 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/27 08:16 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Doug S | 2019/02/27 12:49 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/02/27 01:43 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Doug S | 2019/02/27 04:06 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Gian-Carlo Pascutto | 2019/02/28 05:00 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gian-Carlo Pascutto | 2019/02/28 05:02 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Michael S | 2019/03/01 03:47 AM |
death by a thousand cuts | Michael S | 2019/03/01 07:27 AM |
death by a thousand cuts | Foo_ | 2019/03/01 07:37 AM |
death by a thousand cuts | dmcq | 2019/03/01 12:10 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Jukka Larja | 2019/02/28 06:31 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/28 09:17 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/02/28 03:02 PM |
ARM announces Ares | aaron spink | 2019/03/01 01:19 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Andrew Clough | 2019/02/28 11:32 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Andrew Clough | 2019/02/28 11:33 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Foo_ | 2019/03/01 01:55 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Jukka Larja | 2019/03/01 05:40 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/27 08:45 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/27 09:17 AM |
ARM announces Ares | dmcq | 2019/02/27 09:21 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/27 04:03 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Jukka Larja | 2019/02/28 06:03 AM |
ARM announces Ares | none | 2019/02/27 11:49 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/02/28 04:26 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Peter E. Fry | 2019/02/28 07:31 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Adrian | 2019/02/28 10:09 PM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/03/02 12:56 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Howard Chu | 2019/03/02 10:05 AM |
ARM announces Ares | Gabriele Svelto | 2019/03/02 02:31 PM |