By: Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com), February 27, 2019 6:06 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on February 27, 2019 3:04 pm wrote:
> Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on February 27, 2019 1:32 pm wrote:
> > An arms dealer selling mercenary services as well as effective weapons and training would not
> > be that much more an economic threat to a mercenary company than one that selling just weapons
> > and training when anyone can get good recruits. For ARM's licensees, fab technology is not
> > a distinguishing factor ("anyone can get good recruits"). If ARM's design offerings become
> > "good enough" (and complete enough), ARM effectively becomes an indirect competitor.
>
>
> But ARM doesn't sell a complete SoC, they sell a CPU and a GPU. Modern SoCs have so much more than that,
> and you cannot be successful with just those elements. That's like your hypothetical arms dealer selling
> only AK47s and cartridges, while your mercenary companies can not only supply well trained soldiers but
> everything from land mines to rocket launchers to helicopters armed with depleted uranium rounds.

First, I did include "complete enough". Second, if ARM can license design components to produce a server/personal computer processor (which is the hardware competition of concern in this thread, I think), ARM could probably acquire the right to sub-license such design components and optimized hardenings of them, which could then be provided to a company making server/personal computer processors. ARM seems to want to become a one-stop shop for design components for a substantial portion of the semiconductor market. ARM also seems to want to make using ARM design components as easy as possible with low time-to-market and low risk (Processor Optimization Packs). While it is a significant extrapolation to go from these tendencies to ARM providing "Chip Optimization Packs", it does not seem more unreasonable than the technical issues with ARM producing a processor chip for sale.

The economic impact to companies making ARM server/personal computer processor chips of ARM providing a ChOP for such a chip would not be that different than ARM developing such and using the ChOP to produce its own chips for sale as well as licensing the ChOP to others.

I doubt ARM will be selling hardware any time soon (it already has enough concerns even with the recent influx of capital), but if it did I tend to agree with Michael S that "most of their customers either wouldn't object ... or object silently with no visible effects". It seems the options are RISC-V, an internal ISA, or ARM. RISC-V is still immature (it may dominate the "microcontroller" market before ARM has a substantial server presence, but I suspect it will be a while before it is as broadly used as ARM is now), and RISC-V is a threat to ARM regardless of how much ARM competes in server/personal computer hardware. Apple might adopt an internal ISA, but the other ARM customers seem to recognize a benefit from a shared software ecosystem (even though as a rising tide it raises all boats, i.e., helps competitors).

If ARM customers continue to fail to provide good developer systems, ARM might be pushed into selling hardware. (At least that seems to be the theory behind the suggestion.) I am skeptical that ARM would develop a good personal computer/entry-level server processor chip and motherboard reference designs (that would probably be enough for multiple companies to make and sell systems), but ARM has announced plans for higher performance cores and better "uncore" designs.
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ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/20 07:35 AM
  ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/20 07:39 AM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 09:03 AM
      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 09:41 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 11:49 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 12:21 PM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 01:01 PM
              ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 01:31 PM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 02:16 PM
                  ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 02:49 PM
                    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 03:09 PM
                      ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 03:45 PM
                        ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/20 03:55 PM
                          ARM announces AresDan Fay2019/02/20 04:44 PM
                            ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 06:06 PM
                              ARM announces AresDan Fay2019/02/21 07:27 AM
                        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 04:49 PM
                          ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 05:40 PM
                            ARM announces AresCharles2019/02/21 01:16 AM
                              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:26 AM
                        ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 07:55 PM
                          ARM announces AresJS2019/02/20 11:59 PM
                            *has not hasn't (NT)JS2019/02/21 12:01 AM
                            ARM announces AresSalvatore De Dominicis2019/02/21 06:05 AM
                        Definitions of RISCBrendan2019/02/21 09:07 AM
                          Definitions of RISCMichael S2019/02/21 09:16 AM
                          PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISCMark Roulo2019/02/21 01:10 PM
                            PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISCrwessel2019/02/21 06:13 PM
                          Definitions of RISCAdrian2019/02/21 01:42 PM
                            Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)wumpus2019/02/21 05:29 PM
                              Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/21 11:32 PM
                                Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)Michael S2019/02/22 03:28 AM
                                  Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 07:01 AM
  ARM announces Areslockederboss2019/02/20 08:56 AM
    stability? (NT)anonymous22019/02/20 09:01 AM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 09:05 AM
    ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/20 09:11 AM
    ARM announces AresAndrei Frumusanu2019/02/20 10:49 AM
  ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/20 09:36 AM
    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 09:54 AM
    ARM announces AresGeoff Langdale2019/02/20 02:07 PM
      ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 02:32 PM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/20 11:03 PM
        That last line should have been removed :-) (NT)none2019/02/20 11:04 PM
        ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 12:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 02:59 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 03:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 04:18 AM
              ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 08:43 AM
    ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 08:27 PM
      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 12:53 AM
        ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 08:03 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 08:35 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 08:51 AM
            ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/21 01:40 PM
            ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/02/21 02:56 PM
            ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 03:27 PM
              ARM announces AresStoffels2019/02/21 11:21 PM
                ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/22 03:15 AM
                  ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 08:41 AM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/22 09:30 AM
                    In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 (NT)Gabriele Svelto2019/02/24 12:32 PM
                      In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86Simon Farnsworth2019/02/25 03:53 AM
              ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/22 01:52 AM
              ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 12:31 PM
                ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 02:57 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/25 03:21 AM
                    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 03:58 AM
                      ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/25 04:21 AM
                        ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/26 07:02 AM
                    ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 11:32 PM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 11:14 AM
                      ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 04:34 PM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/26 12:34 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 11:16 AM
                        ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/26 11:19 PM
              ARM announces Aresend of an era2019/02/24 02:18 PM
                Word salad bot strikes again (NT)nanon2019/02/24 11:26 PM
                ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 01:10 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 01:52 AM
                    ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 09:48 AM
                      ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/25 01:07 PM
                      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 11:38 PM
                    ARM announces AresJohn Yates2019/02/26 02:43 PM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 05:55 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 04:22 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 03:54 PM
              ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 02:12 AM
                ARMY announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/20 04:47 AM
                  ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 05:05 AM
          ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/21 09:23 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 09:29 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 04:44 PM
            ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 10:52 AM
            ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 07:19 PM
              ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 02:40 AM
          software ecosystemsRichardC2019/02/21 03:31 PM
            software ecosystemsFoo_2019/02/22 02:15 AM
          ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 04:31 PM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 07:23 AM
              + on hyperscalingMaynard Handley2019/02/22 07:38 AM
                + on hyperscalingjuanrga2019/02/22 10:57 AM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 07:23 AM
              sorry duplicatedmcq2019/02/22 07:26 AM
          ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 07:34 PM
            ARM announces AresBrett2019/02/21 09:20 PM
          ARM announces AresA. Wilcox2019/02/22 02:52 PM
  ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/20 02:30 PM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 03:14 PM
      ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/21 07:40 AM
        ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/02/21 03:05 PM
        ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/22 07:48 AM
  ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 01:28 AM
    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 02:25 AM
      ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/22 03:09 AM
      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/22 07:51 AM
        ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 10:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/22 11:23 AM
            Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 01:21 PM
              Chicken or egg, both.David Soul2019/02/22 05:05 PM
                Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 08:55 PM
                  ARM salesjuanrga2019/02/23 02:55 AM
                    ARM salesaaron spink2019/02/23 07:47 AM
                Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/23 05:33 PM
                  Chicken or egg, both.Magagop2019/02/24 10:18 PM
                    why not? (NT)Michael S2019/02/25 01:03 AM
                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/25 09:36 AM
                        why not?Michael S2019/02/25 09:43 AM
                          why not?dmcq2019/02/25 10:35 AM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/25 11:03 AM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/25 11:29 AM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/26 09:08 AM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/26 11:05 AM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 03:51 AM
                                    why not?Doug S2019/02/27 11:15 AM
                                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 12:43 AM
                                why not?anon2019/02/26 10:22 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 03:59 AM
                                    why not?anon2019/02/27 05:42 AM
                                      why not?Magagop2019/02/27 02:31 PM
                                        why not?anon2019/02/27 04:02 PM
                                          why not?dmcq2019/02/27 04:25 PM
                                            why not?anon2019/02/27 04:56 PM
                                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:19 PM
                                                why not?anon2019/02/27 05:46 PM
                                                  why not?Wilco2019/02/28 04:49 AM
                                                    why not?Jukka Larja2019/02/28 06:02 AM
                                                      why not?Michael S2019/02/28 07:32 AM
                                                      why not?Wilco2019/02/28 08:40 AM
                                                      why not?Doug S2019/02/28 09:13 AM
                                                        why not?Foo_2019/03/01 06:35 AM
                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/01 10:05 AM
                                                            why not?anon2019/03/01 01:32 PM
                                                              why not?dmcq2019/03/01 02:13 PM
                                                                why not?anon2019/03/01 03:13 PM
                                                                  why not?dmcq2019/03/02 02:56 AM
                                                                    why not?anon2019/03/02 09:09 AM
                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/02 09:41 AM
                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/02 11:19 AM
                                                                          why not?dmcq2019/03/03 02:48 AM
                                                                      why not?Doug S2019/03/02 03:53 PM
                                                                        why not?Michael S2019/03/02 04:06 PM
                                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/02 11:54 PM
                                                                            why not?Michael S2019/03/03 01:58 AM
                                                                              why not?anon2019/03/03 04:35 AM
                                                                                why not?dmcq2019/03/03 05:33 AM
                                                                                  I considired dry humor a Brittish specialty. It seems, I was wrong about it. (NT)Michael S2019/03/03 05:39 AM
                                                                                  why not?anon2019/03/03 09:13 AM
                                                                                    why not?Michael S2019/03/03 11:41 AM
                                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/03 12:21 PM
                                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/03 03:15 PM
                                                    why not?anon2019/02/28 07:38 PM
                                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 12:48 AM
                                                strawman (NT)anon2019/02/28 07:31 PM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/27 02:53 AM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:26 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 04:42 AM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 04:49 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 05:21 AM
                                  why not?dmcq2019/02/27 06:15 AM
                                Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 10:25 AM
                                  Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 11:45 AM
                                    Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 01:32 PM
                                      Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 03:04 PM
                                        Paul A. Clayton2019/02/27 06:06 PM
                                          Arm reference board?Simon Farnsworth2019/02/28 11:34 AM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/27 11:46 AM
                      why not? (NT)la mama de murgay2019/02/25 09:22 PM
                    Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/25 12:23 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 02:07 PM
              ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/03/02 04:40 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 07:08 AM
                  ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/03/02 09:10 AM
          ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 03:33 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 05:20 PM
              TrollDoug S2019/02/23 12:37 AM
                TrollDavid Soul2019/02/23 07:59 AM
              ARM announces AresEnnis2019/02/23 01:18 AM
                ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/23 01:38 AM
                  ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/23 02:46 AM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/23 04:41 AM
  ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/26 02:58 AM
    expensiveanonymous22019/02/26 11:46 PM
    ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 06:19 AM
      ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 06:21 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 06:57 AM
        ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/27 07:11 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 07:16 AM
            ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 11:49 AM
              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 12:43 PM
                ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 03:06 PM
                  ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 04:00 AM
                ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 04:02 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/03/01 02:47 AM
                    death by a thousand cutsMichael S2019/03/01 06:27 AM
                      death by a thousand cutsFoo_2019/03/01 06:37 AM
                        death by a thousand cutsdmcq2019/03/01 11:10 AM
              ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 05:31 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 08:17 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/28 02:02 PM
                    ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/03/01 12:19 AM
                ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 10:32 AM
                  ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 10:33 AM
                  ARM announces AresFoo_2019/03/01 12:55 AM
                  ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/03/01 04:40 AM
          ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 08:17 AM
              ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 08:21 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 03:03 PM
            ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 05:03 AM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/27 10:49 PM
        ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 03:26 AM
          ARM announces AresPeter E. Fry2019/02/28 06:31 PM
            ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/28 09:09 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/01 11:56 PM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/03/02 09:05 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 01:31 PM
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